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15 minutes ago, Shelton said:

As an alumnus of the school and a supporter of the program, I want Jim Harbaugh to remain as the head football coach. 

What are your expectations of this program under Harbaugh moving forward?

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3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

What are your expectations of this program under Harbaugh moving forward?

Being a top 7 team on average in SP+ over the next five years. 

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28 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

 

Those Who Stay Will Be 9 and 3 Harbaugh.png

Pretty normal for the past 40 years. Starting in 1979 through 2018:

- Michigan has had 14 seasons of 10 wins or more, 3 of them under Harbaugh

- Michigan has only won more than 10 games four times - once under Bo, twice under Carr, once under Hoke

- Michigan has lost 3 or more games 29 of those 40 years (this will make it 30 of 41 including all 5 under Harbaugh)

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2 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Pretty normal for the past 40 years. Starting in 1979 through 2018:

- Michigan has had 14 seasons of 10 wins or more, 3 of them under Harbaugh

- Michigan has only won more than 10 games four times - once under Bo, twice under Carr, once under Hoke

- Michigan has lost 3 or more games 29 of those 40 years (this will make it 30 of 41 including all 5 under Harbaugh)

Right, we've been a great program for a long time, but rarely in the elite stratosphere of teams season over season. And for the longest time, when college football was a more regional sport, winning the conference, beating Ohio, and going to the Rose Bowl every few years was good enough. The landscape has changed and now the National Title means more than ever.

In Harbaugh's case though, even if it were still a more regionally focused sport, he would still fail on all of those metrics. Hasn't beaten Ohio, hasn't won a Big Ten Title, and wouldn't be going to the Rose Bowl. 9-3 or 10-2, almost but not quite, is not an acceptable mentality in my view. For me, I want a program that compete's for National Championships and beats their chief rival at least some of the time. I'm not asking Harbaugh to be Nick Saban and compete every single year, but I'm also expecting that 5 years in, he has at least one win over his chief rival and can get into a Big Ten Title Game.

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4 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

"Those who stay will be Ohio State's ******" is more appropriate IMO.

That too. I just didn't feel like putting the b-word on as a cover photo here.

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I know it’s bad to lose to Ohio State 5 years in a row.   You want to know what’s really bad...

The Brady Hoke era and the Rich Rodriguez era.

Those were a single 10 win season in 7 years and 6 seasons with 5 losses or more.    

Harbaugh has four 10 win seasons and only one 5 loss year.    
 

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Just as an aside  - I see about UM 200 students every week in  informal settings. I didn't hear one conversation about the OSU game or a tailgate or a game party or anything else about the big weekend in the prior two weeks. That low a buzz level is probably a first, but it's pretty much the continuation of trend over the last 10 yrs.

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4 hours ago, 4hzglory said:

Actually 1 major change has been that Michigan very rarely recruits Ohio any more.  Part of that may be OSU doing a better job of keeping kids in state, but in the past some of Michigan's best players came from Ohio.  It just isn't happening anymore.

Yup. Bo's connection to Ohio recruiting via his long history coaching there was a 'one of' situation for a Michigan coach. That legacy carried over somewhat for Moeller and Carr as Schembechler apprentices - but it's long gone today. 

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A big problem with Harbaugh has been the failure in his decisions to bring in transfer QBs rather than trying to develop his own.   He was known as a QB guru at every previous stop and he’s now 5 seasons in and he’s yet to start a guy that he recruited and grew on his own.    It’s surprising how little he’s gotten from his QB’s.  They’ve all kind of underachieved working with him and that’s very puzzling based on his reputation.  

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1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

A big problem with Harbaugh has been the failure in his decisions to bring in transfer QBs rather than trying to develop his own.   He was known as a QB guru at every previous stop and he’s now 5 seasons in and he’s yet to start a guy that he recruited and grew on his own.    It’s surprising how little he’s gotten from his QB’s.  They’ve all kind of underachieved working with him and that’s very puzzling based on his reputation.  

Patterson has been very problematic - you can see the physical ability that attracts coaches, but he has been very inconsistent game to game and even within games from quarter to quarter.

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7 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

0-6, 0-7, 0-8, 0-9, 0-10, 0-11, 0-12, 0-13, 0-14, 0-15? Just how pathetic does it have to get then before a change has to be made down at Schembechler Hall?

If Ohio can leverage itself during the changing of the guard in college football and become more of a nationwide powerhouse, there is no reason to think Michigan could not. It's just that we apparently refuse to adopt a new mindset. As fans, we should be demanding more of the school we love and make beating Ohio and winning National Championships our goal, not going 9-3.

And if this is what we do accept, then we best update the old Schembechler quote to "Those who stay will be 9-3."

OSU also used to allow more academic abuse than most B10 schools were willing to accomodate and  there is no doubt that helped them separate themselves from the rest of the conference. Now I would guess that with all the academic ranking pressure at all AAU schools today that even at OSU (which in some rankings is up into the top 50 Universities now)  it has gotten harder for athletes to maintain eligibility dishonestly than it was 15 yrs ago. But the football program still reaped the performance legacy benefit form the Katzenmoyers and Spellmans and Claretts even if those situations are less likely today.

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Tater and MCS gonna Tater and MCS.

I realize the frustration at losing to OSU, but Harbaugh has brought Michigan back to respectability.  It hasn't met the expectations of the fan base, but it's still pretty good.  They haven't been able to beat otherworldy OSU teams, but it's been pretty damn good other than that.  It's pretty much back to the way things were under Bo: winning 9-10 games a year, losing an upset here and there.  The difference is OSU is on another plane with their recruiting that they never were before and Penn State is in the conference.  I mean, MSU is back to getting beat down every other year and beaten every year.  They're done.  Occasionally you lose to an Iowa on the road or Wisconsin on the road but that will happen.

I'm as frustrated as anyone at the way they've lost to Ohio State, but until Michigan makes the conscious decision to compete in recruiting in the same fashion as OSU or the SEC, they're not going to be those teams.  OSU sold its soul to (whatever soul it had left) Urban Meyer, Michigan hasn't done that.

Harbaugh has been a bit of a disappointment for me, but when I look at the big picture, he's restored Michigan back to being a top 10 program that hasn't been able to get over that final hump.  Hopefully they can do it in the near future.  

One day the NCAA will have the balls to stop OSU from being OSU.  Until that happens, Michigan will always be behind the 8 ball.

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4 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

OSU also used to allow more academic abuse than most B10 schools were willing to accomodate and  there is no doubt that helped them separate themselves from the rest of the conference. Now I would guess that with all the academic ranking pressure at all AAU schools today that even at OSU (which in some rankings is up into the top 50 Universities now)  it has gotten harder for athletes to maintain eligibility dishonestly than it was 15 yrs ago. But the football program still reaped the performance legacy benefit form the Katzenmoyers and Spellmans and Claretts even if those situations are less likely today.

G2, Justin Fields came out and said he's never actually been to a class at OSU.  Just takes online courses.

As someone who has had relatives teach at UM and have had close friends go to UM, I realize the athletes are treated differently, but they do at least go to class (if sometimes only occasionally).  OSU is different in the Big Ten, and they don't give a **** about it.  Michigan at least puts up the veneer that they care about the "student athlete" when it comes to admissions and classes.

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Good Lord you know things are bad at Michigan when Bonghit is the voice of reason.

Benke must be rolling over in his maize and blue online grave.:ninja: <----- who's this guy?

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46 minutes ago, Buddha said:

G2, Justin Fields came out and said he's never actually been to a class at OSU.  Just takes online courses.

As someone who has had relatives teach at UM and have had close friends go to UM, I realize the athletes are treated differently, but they do at least go to class (if sometimes only occasionally).  OSU is different in the Big Ten, and they don't give a **** about it.  Michigan at least puts up the veneer that they care about the "student athlete" when it comes to admissions and classes.

I think what people don't understand is how much this is a matter of culture within a faculty. Professors and/or academic units at UM have great autonomy  - probably also at OSU. In Ann Arbor they are not answerable to the athletic dept. If they don't want to give students free rides because they are FB players, they won't. So what ends up happening is a lot of course shopping for the most sympathetic instructors, depts, and the number and prevalence of that kind of instruction available depends a lot on the nature and culture of the University faculty. UM probably has the highest proportion of out of state students, the highest proportion of graduates students, and recruits its faculty more internationally than any school in the B1G other than maybe NW. It is a different place than OSU just in terms of the level of fandom within the faculty - and that makes a difference. UM, Wisconsin, UCLA, Berkeley are schools at the very top of the US academic food chain and while they all play BCS football and often play it very well (well, other than the Bears!) , they are not going to provide the kind of environment that is going to attract some of the athletes that want the 'experience' that they can get at an OSU or Alabama. That's why I said before that if the day comes any time soon that UM achieves more parity with OSU in football, it is more likely to be because internal academic stds pressures at OSU cause it to comes back to the pack a bit than that UM gets to where OSU is today.

Then there is the whole separate issue of the amount of booster money sloshing around Franklin County.

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12 hours ago, Hongbit said:

A big problem with Harbaugh has been the failure in his decisions to bring in transfer QBs rather than trying to develop his own.   He was known as a QB guru at every previous stop and he’s now 5 seasons in and he’s yet to start a guy that he recruited and grew on his own.    It’s surprising how little he’s gotten from his QB’s.  They’ve all kind of underachieved working with him and that’s very puzzling based on his reputation.  

Yeah, it feels like you really need to have a great quarterback to be able to reach that upper tier. Transfers are not a great solution. More often than not, the kid transferring is doing so because they got beat out for a job. 
 

Looking back on Harbaugh’s QBs, Rudock was a good find and helped fill an immediate need. Speight was surprisingly effective, but not Harbaugh’s guy and wasn’t an elite recruit. Still, I wonder how much better 2017 is if Speight is healthy.

I think his first two QB recruits were Peters and Gentry. Gentry obviously moves to TE and that was a good move for him, at least. Peters appears to have been a miss, but who knows. Maybe if he wasn’t murdered by Wisconsin two years ago and showed better then Patterson isn’t pursued and Peters could have become a thing. I doubt it. I don’t remember Peters’s recruiting profile.

McCaffrey and Milton will have had a couple years developing heading into next year. And McNamara will also be in the mix. Maybe one of them steps up. Maybe not. Until we know, it’s really only been Peters who has been a recruit/develop bust. 

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2 hours ago, Shelton said:

Yeah, it feels like you really need to have a great quarterback to be able to reach that upper tier.

LOL - last week everyone was saying Haskins has zero shot to stick in the NFL and he was never a big running QB, so how much was he bringing to the Buckeye game?  I know, different game at the QB position, but still amusing....

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15 hours ago, Hongbit said:

A big problem with Harbaugh has been the failure in his decisions to bring in transfer QBs rather than trying to develop his own.   He was known as a QB guru at every previous stop and he’s now 5 seasons in and he’s yet to start a guy that he recruited and grew on his own.    It’s surprising how little he’s gotten from his QB’s.  They’ve all kind of underachieved working with him and that’s very puzzling based on his reputation.  

He is supposed to be an offensive minded guy and has been completely unable to develop his own QB. He is supposed to be an offensive guy and has had to change Offensive Coordinators 3 times, including giving up the play calling himself. To borrow a line from Dennis Green, he's just not who we thought he was and we are letting him off the hook because he's a "Michigan Man", "Messiah" or whatever. 

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Transfer QB's are fine.  

They have won the last two Heismans and another transfer QB is the favorite to win it this year.  

A transfer QB just destroyed your team.  Two of the three NC favorites are lead by a transfer QB.  If Oklahoma makes the playoffs, three of the 4 teams in the playoffs will have a transfer QB leading them.

Shea didn't live up to the hype he had when  he transferred.  But if you made a list of the problems Michigan has, he isn't even top 5.

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