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ROMAD1

Directions and Objectives For A Future Mainstream Party

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Mitt on Jake Tapper was interesting.  Said that Trump was being insane.  Said he did not recognize the Republican Party and would like to stay in it to help steer it back to a party that believed in (paraphrasing) collective security, free trade and the rule of law.

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10 hours ago, ROMAD1 said:

Mitt on Jake Tapper was interesting.  Said that Trump was being insane.  Said he did not recognize the Republican Party and would like to stay in it to help steer it back to a party that believed in (paraphrasing) collective security, free trade and the rule of law.

He and anyone else attempting that will be overwhelmed by the Trumpers.

I still want this to be done... but from the outside, not the inside. Again, they'll lose out to the Trumpers from the inside...

 

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Just now, 84 Lives!!! said:

He and anyone else attempting that will be overwhelmed by the Trumpers.

I still want this to be done... but from the outside, not the inside. Again, they'll lose out to the Trumpers from the inside...

 

So long as the Conservative media incorporated folks are still singing Trump's praises.

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42 minutes ago, ROMAD1 said:

So long as the Conservative media incorporated folks are still singing Trump's praises.

I think it's his followers that matter more. They'll do what he tells them to do... by tweet, right wing fascist media, or otherwise.

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They need to go ahead and found their new party and see what kind of support they can muster, it's the only way to find out. Right now guys like Romney are just continuing to feed the beast by supporting the rest of the party that supports Trump even if they  have refused to support Trump in particular.

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33 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

They need to go ahead and found their new party and see what kind of support they can muster, it's the only way to find out. Right now guys like Romney are just continuing to feed the beast by supporting the rest of the party that supports Trump even if they  have refused to support Trump in particular.

Yeah, just call it the Conservative Party... and attempt to take back the meaning of the word.I suspect that's an even longer shot than making change from within tho... even with Trump's hold on the Republican Party.

A lot of it comes down to money... the two major parties have a significant structural advantage over third parties, and money is a big part of that

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1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

Yeah, just call it the Conservative Party... and attempt to take back the meaning of the word.I suspect that's an even longer shot than making change from within tho... even with Trump's hold on the Republican Party.

A lot of it comes down to money... the two major parties have a significant structural advantage over third parties, and money is a big part of that

Forbes and Romney have enough money to get it off the ground if they wanted to and Charles Koch has no love for Trump.

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They already have a decent fundraising apparatus with The Lincoln Project. Throw in media like The Bullwerk, and convince a few talk show hosts in major markets to leave the Dark Side......

Anyway it’s a start. Baby steps.

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29 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

They already have a decent fundraising apparatus with The Lincoln Project. Throw in media like The Bullwerk, and convince a few talk show hosts in major markets to leave the Dark Side......

Anyway it’s a start. Baby steps.

Its better than where we were a year ago that is for sure.  

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This is a good read. Key takeaway 

 

https://thebulwark.com/the-trade-meet-the-new-red-dog-democrats/

Quote

The existence of these new teams is, I realize, frustrating for many involved. But for the liberals who are cranky about the trade, let me give you a scouting report on your new teammates.

(1) You can keep the Reds in the tent without doing any of the dog-whistle pandering to white grievance culture that will be required to win back the Obama-Trump voters.

  • Black Lives Matter? Got the t-shirt.
  • Kneeling for the anthem? You do you, Kaep!
  • Gay and Trans rights: **** yes!
  • Mask wearing: The Red Dogs triple bag it!

(2) There are substantial progressive policy priorities that Red Dog voters either actively support or won’t make a stink about. Here are just a few of those items:

(3) There’s another batch of policies where the Red Dogs will go along with liberals either part, or most, of the way.

  • Climate regulations, re-entering the Paris Agreement, and investing in green energy—yes! (But banning fossil fuels is going to hurt you with the charter Red Dogs in places like Dallas and Houston.)
  • Major criminal justice and police reform—awesome! (“Defunding” the police is not going to be a winner.)
  • Dream Act, refugee resettlement, pathway to citizenship—sweet. Republicans used to be for this! (Decriminalizing the border, not so much.)
  • Reasonable gun-control legislation. Think of it this way: Anything that has a prayer of getting through Joe Manchin and Jon Tester, the Red Dogs will support enthusiastically.
  • Taxing the rich. (Okay. Just don’t stick it to the HENRY’s too hard.)
  • Health care public option. (Key word: “option.”)
  • A new Trans-Pacific Partnership. (Do Democrats support free trade agreements anymore? That’s unclear at this stage. But if they do, the Red Dogs are with them.)

Not every Red Dog will agree with everything on the above list. And there will be areas of disagreement within the coalition not covered above. Abortion rights, education reform, and the like.

But for the most part, this new team can unite behind a broadly popular center-left agenda that is—let’s just be honest here—already beyond what is realistically achievable in our current political environment.

 

 

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39 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

This is a good read. Key takeaway 

 

https://thebulwark.com/the-trade-meet-the-new-red-dog-democrats/

 

This is fair, unfortunately it may also also be moot depending on what happens in GA because Miller doesn't control McConnell's caucus. Now if

 we get to the point where some combination of Romney, Murkowksky and or Collins (or whoever) will support discharge petitions and effectively put themselves on the other side of the aisle there will be something to talk about. Otherwise it's "we can talk about 2022"

“There comes a time to join the side you’re on.” Good line.

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22 hours ago, mtutiger said:

Yeah, just call it the Conservative Party... and attempt to take back the meaning of the word. I suspect that's an even longer shot than making change from within tho... even with Trump's hold on the Republican Party.

A lot of it comes down to money... the two major parties have a significant structural advantage over third parties, and money is a big part of that

I think the easier pathway is to take over the Libertarian Party and reconfigure it to be less extreme and less anti-government... but still put out a message of socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Call it the Neo-Libertarian Party.

I'm not certain that works better than just starting from scratch with the Neo-Republican or Neo-Conservative party. But if I had to guess... it would give them a better starting point.

Although, based on Tim Miller's article above (and I've stated this before and I agree with his position): the best way to defeat Trumpism, in the immediate time-frame, is for "Real" Republicans to defect to the Democratic Party. For those who value Country over Party. For how long... not certain. But this takes priority over trying to take back the conservative movement from Trumpublicanism. The only way to truly do that is to first defeat them at the ballot box. And the only way to do that is to join up with Dems for as long as it takes to knock out Trumpist fascism. At that point, make a move to restart neo-conservatism in whatever manner works...

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7 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

This is fair, unfortunately it may also also be moot depending on what happens in GA because Miller doesn't control McConnell's caucus. Now if we get to the point where some combination of Romney, Murkowksky and or Collins (or whoever) will support discharge petitions and effectively put themselves on the other side of the aisle there will be something to talk about. Otherwise it's "we can talk about 2022"

“There comes a time to join the side you’re on.” Good line.

This.

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I just read Tim's article. Good article.

And I guess I'm saying the same thing: It's time right now for anyone who loves this country, Democracy, and the Constitution of the United States to declare their true color. And right now, that's Blue.

At some point, the center right may break away and try to recreate the party they grew up with. Over creative differences with Dems or what not. But that day is not today. 

Center right and center left and progressive left need to all rally around obtaining Democratic Party legislative & executive power in order to defeat Trumpism, once and for all. Since I'm an Independent dead-square in the middle, mostly caucusing with Dems... this fits me to a "T". Tell the Progressive wing they need to understand this in order to get legislation passed. I hope they got the message in November 2020.

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:00 PM, Gehringer_2 said:

They need to go ahead and found their new party and see what kind of support they can muster, it's the only way to find out. Right now guys like Romney are just continuing to feed the beast by supporting the rest of the party that supports Trump even if they  have refused to support Trump in particular.

I don't see how either the Trumpers or Nevertrumpers split off into a second conservative party, because wouldn't that give Democrats bullet-majorities in most places on most candidates and even issues? Unless there can be some sort of close political alliance structured between the Trumpy new party and the Mitty old party, given how closely they are aligned on at least the corporate welfare/anti-labor union side of things, while maintaining separate slates of candidates. At which point, what's the point of splintering off into a new right-wing party at all?

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On 12/20/2020 at 8:30 PM, 84 Lives!!! said:

I think it's his followers that matter more. They'll do what he tells them to do... by tweet, right wing fascist media, or otherwise.

The followers tell him what to do too.  Everything he says or does (or pretends to do) is aimed at his target audience.  

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nice to know my small contributions have had positive effect on the President's mindset.

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5 hours ago, chasfh said:

I don't see how either the Trumpers or Nevertrumpers split off into a second conservative party, because wouldn't that give Democrats bullet-majorities in most places on most candidates and even issues?

well the never-Trumpers do want the Trump GOP to lose don't they? But too many of them can't bring themselves to identifying as Dems. So fine, forming a 3rd party is an alternate way for the Trumpers to lose without the never-Trumps having to say they broke any bread with AOC. If you're a Dem, whether you win because you got more votes or the Trumper got less is a second order thing to worry about.  Whatever combination can create enough loses for Trumpism for it to be discarded as a failed political movement works for me! 

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18 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

well the never-Trumpers do want the Trump GOP to lose don't they? But too many of them can't bring themselves to identifying as Dems. So fine, forming a 3rd party is an alternate way for the Trumpers to lose without the never-Trumps having to say they broke any bread with AOC. If you're a Dem, whether you win because you got more votes or the Trumper got less is a second order thing to worry about.  Whatever combination can create enough loses for Trumpism for it to be discarded as a failed political movement works for me! 

Well, if you’re a Dem, you’re salivating at the prospect of the opposition party literally dividing itself in two. They’d like nothing more than that because in a winner-take-all plurality-based electoral system, they might end up getting not only the presidency, but maybe 350+ reps and 70+ senators as a result. I’m pretty sure what Dems want would mean nothing in the equation Nevertrumpers would be weighing here.

As for the equation itself, I would bet that Nevertrumpers would rather believe that Trumpism is simply a fever that has ensnared good conservative colleagues and that once the fever breaks, those folks will come back to the Party of Mitt feeling all better again. So rather than break up the party and hand decades of supermajorities to the raving lunatic socialist Dems, they will cross their fingers, wait the Trumpers out, and hope for the best.

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I would bet that Nevertrumpers would rather believe that Trumpism is simply a fever that has ensnared good conservative colleagues and that once the fever breaks, those folks will come back to the Party of Mitt feeling all better again. So rather than break up the party and hand decades of supermajorities to the raving lunatic socialist Dems, they will cross their fingers, wait the Trumpers out, and hope for the best.

well, I see NTers writing on both sides of that issue so I guess only time will tell where they are going to land. But my guess (and it is only a guess) is that those who think they can rebuild this GOP back into a sane majority party are wrong. I think that because the movement that made Trump possible in the first place was already under way before Trump and is independent of Trumpism, which was the movement away from the GOP in the suburbs, and  that movement was happening because of the loss of appeal the GOP economic program - Reaganomics or Trickledown or whatever its children are named. Trump simply took advantage of the fact that as the GOP shrunk, the remaining base could be won just with fascism and racism and a pledge for anti-abortion judges.

On the same line, I think analysts will also draw the wrong conclusions for the high 2020 turnout on both side, but especially on the GOP side. It's true that Trump pulled a lot of new GOP voters in 2020, but I tend to believe those voters are never coming back to the polls again after Trump, and the longer term issue for both parties is their economic program. 

Now I happen to think neither party - maybe outside of Elizabeth Warren, actually has a clue how to go about rebuilding a vibrant middle class economy again, but at least the Dems want to talk about it aspirationally. As long as that is the case, the GOP is not getting the 'burbs back and the NTers will not get their party back.

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David Brooks quoted this essay by Fukuyama in a column the other day and I thought it was a pretty good read. The history, strengths, weaknesses, and prospect for liberalism (classic sense of the word). I would note that Fukuyama does not necessarily consider today's 'Progressivism' as 'liberalism.'

https://www.americanpurpose.com/articles/liberalism-and-its-discontent/

Quote

Liberalism’s present-day crisis is not new; since its invention in the 17th century, liberalism has been repeatedly challenged by thick communitarians on the right and progressive egalitarians on the left. Liberalism properly understood is perfectly compatible with communitarian impulses and has been the basis for the flourishing of deep and diverse forms of civil society. It is also compatible with the social justice aims of progressives: One of its greatest achievements was the creation of modern redistributive welfare states in the late 20th century. Liberalism’s problem is that it works slowly through deliberation and compromise, and never achieves its communal or social justice goals as completely as their advocates would like. But it is hard to see how the discarding of liberal values is going to lead to anything in the long term other than increasing social conflict and ultimately a return to violence as a means of resolving differences.

✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄 ✴️❄️🎄

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I would like to take the GOP back, but I don't see it happening.  Unfortunately there are not enough NV's for us to start a political party that has any chance to compete.  That said, the NV's that talk about a new party, seem to be OK with knowing that any efforts to do so, will give Democrats power for the foreseeable future.  

I don't like that from a policy perspective, but Trump has ensured there is no alternative.  

 

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3 hours ago, ewsieg said:

I would like to take the GOP back, but I don't see it happening.  Unfortunately there are not enough NV's for us to start a political party that has any chance to compete.  That said, the NV's that talk about a new party, seem to be OK with knowing that any efforts to do so, will give Democrats power for the foreseeable future.  

I don't like that from a policy perspective, but Trump has ensured there is no alternative.  

 

What is NV?

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