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Time to give up on Sanchez?

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11 hours ago, ballmich said:

Man, I'm a Boyd guy.  I have thought since day one that he would turn out to be the best pitcher we got back in the Price trade. I think he pitched great last year after he was recalled mid season, and he has kept it up this spring.  He's earned the spot, in my mind.  

But I am still willing to use the option and give Sanchez the spot if he continues to look like he has turned a corner, and if there is no reasonable trade for Sanchez. It would not be detrimental to this team to give Sanchez five or six starts to see if he is for real.  Meanwhile, it can sometimes be beneficial for young players to start in the minors and get on a roll before being called up.  That may or may not be helpful for Boyd, there's no way to know, but I also don't think that it could hurt either. 

Honestly, if Fulmer hadn't won the ROY I'd be open to starting him at AAA too, just because he's the guy who I really feel like we need to watch the innings count with. But I'm not heartless, and can't see how you can demote him after his 2016 season.  

It won't be detrimental unless it is detrimental. 

 

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The past several season have come down to the last weekend to determine playoff participants.  I'm not willing to give up a few of Boyd's starts to Sanchez to see if he can be traded or not.  It doesn't seem worth it to me.

This isn't the CF hole where there isn't a clear cut answer.  This is an aging pitcher that hasn't been able to keep from getting shelled in the 3rd trip of the order (if he has made it that far) versus a starting pitcher that is on the upswing of his career and was able to handle a starting pitcher role in the second of of last season.

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

The past several season have come down to the last weekend to determine playoff participants.  I'm not willing to give up a few of Boyd's starts to Sanchez to see if he can be traded or not.  It doesn't seem worth it to me.

This isn't the CF hole where there isn't a clear cut answer.  This is an aging pitcher that hasn't been able to keep from getting shelled in the 3rd trip of the order (if he has made it that far) versus a starting pitcher that is on the upswing of his career and was able to handle a starting pitcher role in the second of of last season.

If there ever was a franchise that should understand that you can't give away *any* games it should be the Tigers by now.

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To me it comes back to two things: Zimmerman, and Ausmus. 

Taking the 1st last: If Sanchez is really lights outs for two more 2ce through the order starts against good hitters, fine - start him in the rotation if for nothing else to showcase him for a trade BUT BUT BUT - They still will have to deal with the chance his stamina is still short. Ausmus can't run him into the ground if he runs out of gas (or runs out of deception, doesn't matter which). If he does that he completely defeats the value proposition, you lose the games and you spike his trade value by exposing Sanchez' weaknesses. Has this manager swung his brain around to being willing to take a guy out after 5? IDK.

2: I want to see Zimmerman get big league hitters out (which has yet to happen) before I deal/dump Sanchez. Maybe I'm crazy to be that skeptical, but I am.

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The Zimmerman issue is a good point with respect to Sanchez.  Doesn't make me reconsider Boyd.  In fact, it would only solidify Boyd as a SP.

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12 hours ago, Chili Mac Davis said:

So, are you thinking this because of cost cutting? A salary dump? Otherwise, why would we get rid of a guy pitching well? With that salary you're not gonna get much for him. If he's pitching well, we want to keep him, don't we?

By suggesting that Sanch will be traded are you somehow thinking that Zimmerman is ready to join the rotation?

No way Boyd gets sent down. He's pitching too well. There's more likelihood of Zim going on the DL and Sanchez taking his spot. Fulmer may need extra time.

Sanchez will take Zim's spot. Pelf may make a start or two for Fulmer. I hope Michael's ready...

 

I'm thinking this because the Tigers have at least one, perhaps two extraneous veteran SP, and it is well known that they would like to operate at a lower team payroll.  Further, we have a bit of a roster crunch and it will only be worse if you have to stick both Sanchez and Pelfrey in the bulllpen, and we can't option them to Toledo.  If an adequate trade had been available this winter, I have no doubts that one of those two would have been dealt already.  The fact that Sanchez may have turned a corner now, probably makes him a likely trade candidate. That doesn't mean that Pelfrey can't rebound this season too, but I think most teams would want to see some evidence of the turnaround before they offer to take on any salary or give up any prospects.  And so far, Pelfrey has not shown much, and Sanchez is starting to. And yes, I would certainly trade Sanchez if the right trade came up, even if he finishes ST strong (assuming no injuries to other SP in the meantime).

What are you going to do with Zimmerman if you don't put him in the rotation? Zimm and the Tigers have said all winter that he is healthy.  And he is pitching this spring.  He hasn't been effective yet, but I don't see how the Tigers can say he is somehow not healthy and stick him on the DL, because he's making his starts.  Btw, if you look at the calendar you will see that the Tigers have him lined up to start Game 2 on April 5th.  He's currently scheduled to pitch 3/26 and one would presume then 3/31... then 4/5. Regardless, I'm not going to predict an injury, I'm just working with the facts and reading the tea leaves. If Zimmermann is healthy he will be in the rotation, and no one is saying is not healthy. He's just not getting good results.

Fulmer is pitching in a minor league game today.  Again, the Tigers are showing no signs that Fulmer is injured or not ready to start the season. So unless something changes injury wise, Pelfrey is not going to make any of Fulmer's April starts. 

I guess you can assume that Zimmerman and Fulmer may start on the DL.  But that's just a prediction and there's currently no evidence to support that. I'd rather go with the fact that everyone is currently making their starts and said to be healthy. 

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3 hours ago, Casimir said:

The past several season have come down to the last weekend to determine playoff participants.  I'm not willing to give up a few of Boyd's starts to Sanchez to see if he can be traded or not.  It doesn't seem worth it to me.

I didn't say that we should give Sanchez a few of Boyd's starts to see if he could be traded or not. I said to see if he is for real. Not many teams are looking to trade for SP at the end of April, so it's not likely you can showcase a guy at the start of the season and think you can deal him a month later. After the season starts you'd probably be looking at a June or July trade at earliest, assuming he continues pitching well.  That's not to say he couldn't be traded earlier than that, but it wuold be fairly unusual.  But I would suspect that Boyd would be up sooner than that as a result of injuries or non performance.  Or because Sanchez bombed and the Tigers decide to move on. 

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I know the Tigers will not do it, but I was curious to think about the Tigers starting the season with a 6 man rotation.  Let Boyd and Sanchez be the 5th and 6th starter and see who's wheels fall off first during the season.  This way you don't burn Boyd's last option to send him to the minors to wait it out and see if Sanchez will turn back into a pumpkin through 4-5 starts as the 5th starter in a 5 man rotation to start the season.

In theory, a 6 man rotation will save younger players like Boyd, Fulmer and Norris some innings for the 2017 season too.  But my hunch is that the Tigers will have a few nagging injuries to a pitcher or two so it might just be a 6 man rotation for a month or two before injuries make it a 5 man rotation again anyway.

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52 minutes ago, ballmich said:

I'm thinking this because the Tigers have at least one, perhaps two extraneous veteran SP, and it is well known that they would like to operate at a lower team payroll.  Further, we have a bit of a roster crunch and it will only be worse if you have to stick both Sanchez and Pelfrey in the bulllpen, and we can't option them to Toledo.  If an adequate trade had been available this winter, I have no doubts that one of those two would have been dealt already.  The fact that Sanchez may have turned a corner now, probably makes him a likely trade candidate. That doesn't mean that Pelfrey can't rebound this season too, but I think most teams would want to see some evidence of the turnaround before they offer to take on any salary or give up any prospects.  And so far, Pelfrey has not shown much, and Sanchez is starting to. And yes, I would certainly trade Sanchez if the right trade came up, even if he finishes ST strong (assuming no injuries to other SP in the meantime).

What are you going to do with Zimmerman if you don't put him in the rotation? Zimm and the Tigers have said all winter that he is healthy.  And he is pitching this spring.  He hasn't been effective yet, but I don't see how the Tigers can say he is somehow not healthy and stick him on the DL, because he's making his starts.  Btw, if you look at the calendar you will see that the Tigers have him lined up to start Game 2 on April 5th.  He's currently scheduled to pitch 3/26 and one would presume then 3/31... then 4/5. Regardless, I'm not going to predict an injury, I'm just working with the facts and reading the tea leaves. If Zimmermann is healthy he will be in the rotation, and no one is saying is not healthy. He's just not getting good results.

Fulmer is pitching in a minor league game today.  Again, the Tigers are showing no signs that Fulmer is injured or not ready to start the season. So unless something changes injury wise, Pelfrey is not going to make any of Fulmer's April starts. 

I guess you can assume that Zimmerman and Fulmer may start on the DL.  But that's just a prediction and there's currently no evidence to support that. I'd rather go with the fact that everyone is currently making their starts and said to be healthy. 

Let's assume Zim is not getting batters out until he gets batters out.

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SP depth is something to always consider. Obviously this discussion is based on the assumption that Sanchez pitches well enough these next couple weeks to even make this a conversation. 

I still don't think you want to send Boyd to Toledo and hand the fifth spot to Sanchez. Pitching well down the stretch shouldn't earn him anything more than a spot as a multi inning reliever. If he continues to pitch well in that role, then you have a guy on the roster that you could turn to if one of the starters goes down with an injury. 

He just too much of a ticking time bomb to be trusted with taking the ball every fifth day. 

I don't feel like this recent pair of good performances should change anything regarding g the rotation if everyone else is healthy. I think it simply puts him ahead of guys like pelfrey and Hardy for a bullpen spot. 

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14 minutes ago, Shelton said:

SP depth is something to always consider. Obviously this discussion is based on the assumption that Sanchez pitches well enough these next couple weeks to even make this a conversation. 

I still don't think you want to send Boyd to Toledo and hand the fifth spot to Sanchez. Pitching well down the stretch shouldn't earn him anything more than a spot as a multi inning reliever. If he continues to pitch well in that role, then you have a guy on the roster that you could turn to if one of the starters goes down with an injury. 

He just too much of a ticking time bomb to be trusted with taking the ball every fifth day. 

I don't feel like this recent pair of good performances should change anything regarding g the rotation if everyone else is healthy. I think it simply puts him ahead of guys like pelfrey and Hardy for a bullpen spot. 

Correct.

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29 minutes ago, Chili Mac Davis said:

Let's assume Zim is not getting batters out until he gets batters out.

Does not getting batters out mean you can put a guy on the DL?  

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10 minutes ago, ballmich said:

Does not getting batters out mean you can put a guy on the DL?  

Yup. This is a real logistical issue for teams today. I understand the abuse that used to go on and the need for the current rules, but every once in while you get a case where it just doesn't work for the team or the fans. We went through this with Willis. There are guys who just need to go pitch or hit and get back into their groove or figure stuff out they lost somewhere but you have to basically swallow their major league contract and release them to find their way back with someone else. I guess that is in a player's interest in terms of protecting his money, but bouncing guys on and off the DL when they are actually healthy so they can keep getting rehab time destroys seasons of their careers.

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You have a guy with 4/$94 million left on his contract who says he is healthy. And he's making his starts in ST, just isn't getting positive results.  All you can do is put him in the rotation for now and hope he works through it.  We certainly aren't eating the contract in year 2. Unless Zimmerman or the Tigers sudden come out and say he is dealing with some physical issue, dead arm or something, it looks like he is going to start on April 5th to me. But there is time for this to change if necessary.  But I'm not going to assume that the Tigers or Zimm suddenly come up with an injury to keep him off the roster to start the year, just because he has a bad ST.

I guess on the flip side, Zimmermann is about 15-20 innings short from what he historically has thrown each spring.  But he has two more ST starts to go, and his numbers aren't including the minor league game(s) he has thrown in. 

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I could see the team starting with Znn in the bullpen if they feel his stuff or arm is not completely back or ready. Or if they want to incorporate a mechanical adjustment or something. I'm not sure that is the case at this point, based on Znn's comments, but I haven't read much from Brad or Dubee on the matter.

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17 minutes ago, ballmich said:

You have a guy with 4/$94 million left on his contract who says he is healthy. And he's making his starts in ST, just isn't getting positive results.  All you can do is put him in the rotation for now and hope he works through it.  We certainly aren't eating the contract in year 2. Unless Zimmerman or the Tigers sudden come out and say he is dealing with some physical issue, dead arm or something, it looks like he is going to start on April 5th to me. But there is time for this to change if necessary.  But I'm not going to assume that the Tigers or Zimm suddenly come up with an injury to keep him off the roster to start the year, just because he has a bad ST.

I guess on the flip side, Zimmermann is about 15-20 innings short from what he historically has thrown each spring.  But he has two more ST starts to go, and his numbers aren't including the minor league game(s) he has thrown in. 

I don't know where Zimm is either, I'm really talking more generally - for instance what if he does really still have a problem getting guys out? Back in the day, in both the NHL and MLB, if a guy was healthy but struggling you could send him down to the minors pretty much without restriction. That flexibility is gone. And that is not necessarily a bad thing overall, just saying there are particular cases where it's not helpful and it potentially degrades the quality of play fans pay to see when a team has to let guys work out their problems at the MLB level.

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It probably wouldn't hurt too much to give teams one rehab spot or something, where you could send a single player to the minors (with the player's consent) in order to work on things. I'm not sure the players would be against it as it would effectively give teams an extra roster spot in some circumstances. 

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I think Sanchez would be perfect in the long man role of say 50-60 pitches because even at his best he struggled when his pitch count was elevated.   I think with young guys like Fulmer, Norris, Boyd in the rotation along with Zimm coming back from injury, there are alot of guys who's pitch counts/innings you will be monitoring closely.   So with that in mind we're going to need somebody to bridge the gap from them to the back of the bullpen and I think Sanchez would be perfect to go 3-4 innings in those games. 

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19 hours ago, ballmich said:

I didn't say that we should give Sanchez a few of Boyd's starts to see if he could be traded or not. I said to see if he is for real. Not many teams are looking to trade for SP at the end of April, so it's not likely you can showcase a guy at the start of the season and think you can deal him a month later. After the season starts you'd probably be looking at a June or July trade at earliest, assuming he continues pitching well.  That's not to say he couldn't be traded earlier than that, but it wuold be fairly unusual.  But I would suspect that Boyd would be up sooner than that as a result of injuries or non performance.  Or because Sanchez bombed and the Tigers decide to move on. 

Sorry, didn't mean to put words into your mouth.

Regardless of the intent of using Sanchez over Boyd in the rotation, we're probably just going to disagree on that.

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Sanchez's line today was again very impressive.  6 IP 0 H 1 BB 6 K

It seems from PIT's box score that Sanchez was pitching against a bunch of starting MLers, too.

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12 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I knew he was going to totally turn it around.   I knew it.  I just knew it.  

Ok, so .......... does Ausmus get any credit for this?  The turnaround happened shortly after Ausmus caught a bullpen session.

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2 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Ok, so .......... does Ausmus get any credit for this?  The turnaround happened shortly after Ausmus caught a bullpen session.

Well, I'd say more because he hired Dubee than that he was willing to go out and catch one of his pitchers.

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