Jump to content
Sydney_Fife

2016 Offseason

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yeah giving 50 some extra starts to Fulmer, Norris, Boyd and hopefully a better Zimm could offset our potential losses.

Of course our margin for error would be that much smaller but  we could improve our future without completely punting on 2017.

Yes. They certainly have enough good MLB talent that they can deal their expiring contracts and not be 90 loss terrible, unless things go really bad like 2015.

You would obviously pin your hopes on the rotation and run prevention, and hope no there's no 94-win team in the division.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BetMGM Michigan $600 Risk-Free bet

BetMGM Michigan Sports Betting
Michigan online sports betting is now available! Start betting at BetMGM Michigan now and get a $600 risk-free bet bonus at their online sportsbook & casino.

Claim $600 risk-free bet at BetMGM Michigan Now

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

I think the biggest thing is that the Tigers aren't built the way Avila would like.  To me he seems more "new school" and saber friendly and realizes that it's hard to build a team through FA and carry so many one dimensional players.

I think he wants to build a younger, more versatile team not just because of payroll constraints but because that is the type of team he feels you need.  And I agree with him completely about it.  

I wonder what that means for Collins and Moya. They're both young and cheap but they don't really provide defense or base running (or much of a bat so far). I doubt either has much value in a trade right now so maybe 1 (Collins) gets cut?

I would guess Gose gets more of a leash in hopes a new hitting coach will help because he is that type of player.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

The switch gears might be market based. Avila might have put out some feelers out there since the season ended and while the plan might have been two years, the potential deals out there are so good, based on the market, it might have sped up the sell some guys and retool timetable. 

I sure hope this is the case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tiger337 said:

They might be in a tough spot after 2017 anyway.  Sometimes re-building programs take years like the one the Tigers were on between 89 and 05.  If they stand pat, they will have a good shot in 2017.  

Yeah I'm just not going to get on the rebuild side of things unless Avila shows me an outstanding talent for rebuilding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder what that means for Collins and Moya. They're both young and cheap but they don't really provide defense or base running (or much of a bat so far). I doubt either has much value in a trade right now so maybe 1 (Collins) gets cut?

I would guess Gose gets more of a leash in hopes a new hitting coach will help because he is that type of player.

I think both will have a place on the team next year if maybin is moved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I must admit, I have done a 180 in some ways on this issue in the past week or so. If we REALLY need to trim $30 million or something close to that from next year's roster, I am trading Verlander to the highest bidder tomorrow. And I say that as a lifelong Tigers fan from Verlander's hometown, too. Look, trade him and we still have a strong rotation (and obviously we're not making that trade unless we get back at least one top-3 starter and most likely a couple of them, plus prospects). If the alternative way to save $30M is to trade JD and Kinsler, cut or trade Maybin and move K-Rod, no thank you. We still have a young core group of players, or at least a group that largely has 2+ years of potential left. I'd rather try to replace one starting pitcher than 3 positions players and a closer. At that point, we might as well trade JV anyway cause we're not going to compete.

I still want to keep JD long-term, but it seems like that is not going to happen. So I'm at least willing to entertain the offers that might come for a year of his services.

What would it take to trade JV?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Shelton said:

What would it take to trade JV?

Just for fun, what would it take for JV and/or Cabrera to restructure their contract?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we do go in full rebuilding mode and don't plan on contending the next couple years(I don't expect it but you never know) would JV and/ or Cabrera demand trades? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just for fun, what would it take for JV and/or Cabrera to restructure their contract?

I don't understand the question and there is no restructuring of contracts in MLB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shelton said:

I don't understand the question and there is no restructuring of contracts in MLB.

For instance, the Tigers and Verlander/Cabrera can agree to a new "contract extension" term for slightly more money/years but defer a portion of the total like the Chris Davis deal.  As an example, the Tigers can agree to pick up the vesting options in exchange for deferring money off of the total contract. 

"Chris Davis, and the price tag was staggering given his limited market: $161 million over seven years. Except, they aren’t really paying him $161 million over the next seven years; as part of the deal, the Orioles have deferred about a quarter of the contract, pushing $6 million per year of his annual salary into the years after the contract has expired, and pushing some of it way into the future. Under the terms of this deal, Baltimore will now be sending Davis checks for the next 22 years, with the $42 million in deferred money being paid out from 2023 through 2037."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-value-of-deferred-money-in-the-chris-davis-deal/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They could extend either beyond their current contract, and that could contain deferred money.

But their salaries on their current contracts are fully guaranteed, and there's no way the union or JV or Miggy would ever defer any of that salary. It would be unprecedented. 0.0001% chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For instance, the Tigers and Verlander/Cabrera can agree to a new "contract extension" term for slightly more money/years but defer a portion of the total like the Chris Davis deal.  As an example, the Tigers can agree to pick up the vesting options in exchange for deferring money off of the total contract. 

"Chris Davis, and the price tag was staggering given his limited market: $161 million over seven years. Except, they aren’t really paying him $161 million over the next seven years; as part of the deal, the Orioles have deferred about a quarter of the contract, pushing $6 million per year of his annual salary into the years after the contract has expired, and pushing some of it way into the future. Under the terms of this deal, Baltimore will now be sending Davis checks for the next 22 years, with the $42 million in deferred money being paid out from 2023 through 2037."

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-value-of-deferred-money-in-the-chris-davis-deal/

Cool. But that was a free agent deal.

The JV and Cabrera deals are done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Shelton said:

Cool. But that was a free agent deal.

The JV and Cabrera deals are done.

So?

(Per the article cited below)

 
Ryan Dempster, who approached front-office officials at the team’s winter convention in mid-January and offered to help. Dempster, a right-hander slated to earn $12.5 million for 2010, agreed to defer $3 million of his salary, with the Cubs paying him the money in three installments each February from 2011-13. With the restructuring of Dempster’s contract freeing up another $3 million on the Cubs’ 2010 books, Hendry was able to fill the fourth outfielder spot by signing Xavier Nady to a one-year, $3.3 million deal.

Cincinnati’s Scott Rolen agreed to restructure his contract to help his team bring in more talent. When theReds added two years to Rolen’s existing deal last winter, the third baseman agreed to convert his $11 million salary for 2010 to a $6 million salary and a $5 million signing bonus paid over three years without interest. That allowed Reds GM Walt Jocketty to add shortstop Orlando Cabrera ($2.27 million), Cuban ace Aroldis Chapman ($1 million) and outfielderJonny Gomes ($800,000) to Cincinnati’s 2010 books.

Colorado’s Todd Helton signed a reworked extension in March. His existing contract—the largest in National League history at $141 million—called for the first baseman to earn a nearly prohibitive $19.1 million in 2011 and a $4.6 million buyout in 2012. His new deal converts the buyout to a signing bonus, paid in 2011, and defers $13.1 million of his 2011 salary until 2014-23. The restructured extension frees up $8.5 million on the Rockies’ 2011 books and ensures Helton will play out his career in Colorado.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11055

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Cabrera and Verlander have vesting clause.  Cabrera has a $30 million vesting option for 2024 and 2025 that vest IF he finishes in the top 10 in MVP voting for the previous year.  Verlander has a vesting clause for 2020 at $22M IF he finishes top 5 in Cy Young voting in 2019.

IF Miggy fails to finish top 10 in MVP voting for 2024, his contract is up and he's out not only the $30M for 2024, but the $30M for 2025 also.  If Verlander fails to finish top 5 in Cy Young voting in 2019, so long his $22M 2020 option.

IF the Tigers agree to a contract extension for 2020 for Verlander and 2024 and 2025 Miggy without the vesting clause and a extension for Miggy to get paid whether he finishes top 10 in MVP or not, I can think of 60 million reasons why Miggy might be ok with the accepting the contract extension in exchange for differed money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Admittedly, even if MLB and the union says ok to the idea of a contract extension with differed money, Cabrera and Verlander are free to say "Thanks.....but NO" just as they can also decline a trade to another team using their 10 and 5 rights too... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be fairly easy to trade Verlander if the asking price is fair.  I don't think you can ask for an A grade prospect for a high salaried player in his 30's.  Two B level prospects though would be fair though.  Might be able to get an A-/B+ like Fulmer if we are lucky.  But obviously, if the Mets knew Fulmer would have so much success so soon, they would not have traded him for a pending free agent.   

Cabrera might be harder to trade because his contract is more cumbersome long term and he is much more of a fit for the American League.  But given that it is Miguel Cabrera, I think we could get value back for him despite the contract.  

Thank goodness we are going in a different direction.  I am sick of watching this core fail year after year.  It is clear we are not built for winning championships anymore.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also pick up Maybin's option in a heartbeat.  I can't believe it's even being debated.  I know he played well beyond his career norms but I don't think it is far fetched that things are finally clicking for him and he is a much better player now.  I could see a .280/.340/.400 player with good defense, speed, and contact skills going forward and that is what we need.  If we are truly NOT just rebuilding, we have to pick up that option.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, STLTiger69 said:

Both Cabrera and Verlander have vesting clause.  Cabrera has a $30 million vesting option for 2024 and 2025 that vest IF he finishes in the top 10 in MVP voting for the previous year.  Verlander has a vesting clause for 2020 at $22M IF he finishes top 5 in Cy Young voting in 2019.

IF Miggy fails to finish top 10 in MVP voting for 2024, his contract is up and he's out not only the $30M for 2024, but the $30M for 2025 also.  If Verlander fails to finish top 5 in Cy Young voting in 2019, so long his $22M 2020 option.

IF the Tigers agree to a contract extension for 2020 for Verlander and 2024 and 2025 Miggy without the vesting clause and a extension for Miggy to get paid whether he finishes top 10 in MVP or not, I can think of 60 million reasons why Miggy might be ok with the accepting the contract extension in exchange for differed money.

I guess it has been done before. I was incorrect.

I'm not sure what would really gain nor would I hope/expect such a thing as a fan.

With the Tigers, that's just one rich person deferring money to another. I think Mr. I could afford whatever he wanted if he wanted to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Shelton said:

I really don't think things will be as bad next year as people are saying if we do end up trading JD and others.

I agree.  I don't think moving a few guys means 2017 is a lost cause.  It just depends upon who is moved and who backfills those spots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Oblong said:

It's illogical... until you consider that perhaps a different person is now in charge. Not trying to be dramatic but that's the only thing that makes sense.  Ilitch was in charge and ok with losing money.  Chris Ilitch is now in charge and is not.  Next year was the year to do this.  Not now.  The team really is not that far away and obviously you can't 'go for it' every year but with the contracts coming off after 2017 that's your cuts.

No.... I think this signals some bad news for Tigers fans.  I really do.  It tells us Chris Ilitch has other ideas. He won't be an owner like his father.  Or an Ilitch will not even be an owner.  I really have a bad feeling about what's going to happen to our team.

What Avila said they want to do regarding beign lean, etc. is what every GM says.  All teams want to build through the draft.  that's just PR talk.  They should have been doing that all along.  His message wasn't about that.  It was a warning to the fans.  

Which brings up a question.  Would the family even hold onto the franchise after Mike becomes a decedent?  I suspect there has been some serious estate planning done, but the estate tax is pretty steep and has to be paid in cash.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Who is the Drizzle? said:

I wonder what that means for Collins and Moya. They're both young and cheap but they don't really provide defense or base running (or much of a bat so far). I doubt either has much value in a trade right now so maybe 1 (Collins) gets cut?

I would guess Gose gets more of a leash in hopes a new hitting coach will help because he is that type of player.

Plus they're just bad players

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nastradamus said:

Plus they're just bad players

Yep that's what it comes down to. I find myself thinking we should hang on to Collins but then I remember he's not good.

I'd rather have the 40-man roster spot available at this stage.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, diaspora04 said:

Which brings up a question.  Would the family even hold onto the franchise after Mike becomes a decedent?  I suspect there has been some serious estate planning done, but the estate tax is pretty steep and has to be paid in cash.

there has been a fair amount of reporting that the Ilitchs have put in place an estate plan that will keep the team in the family so I am assuming that is their intent unless things go wrong for some reason.

there are ways around direct inheritance. I suppose they could put the team in a trust with the family as the trustees or something legally similar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah I'm just not going to get on the rebuild side of things unless Avila shows me an outstanding talent for rebuilding.

There is a bit of pause with respect to Avila's lack of experience here.  But they do need to cycle in some new talent going forward.  Avila has 4 seasons left on his deal, so he ain't going nowhere yet.  His FA moves weren't too inspiring, but he made some shrewd trades.  And I do like the message of investing in the scouting and development areas and the data analysis as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Michigan Sports Betting Offer

Michigan launched online sports betting and casino apps on Friday, January 22, 2021. We have selected the top Michigan sportsbooks and casinos that offer excellent bonus offers. Terms and conditions apply.

BetRivers Michigan - Get a 100% up to $250 deposit bonus at their online sportsbook & casino.

Click Here to claim $250 deposit bonus at BetRivers Michigan For Signing Up Now

FanDuel Michigan - Get a $1,000 risk-free bet at FanDuel Michigan on your first bet.

Click Here to claim $1,000 Risk-Free Bet at FanDuel Michigan

BetMGM Michigan - Get a $600 risk-free bet at the BetMGM online casino & sportsbook

Click Here to claim $600 risk-free bet at BetMGM Michigan

   


  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      97,049
    • Total Posts
      3,063,639
  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
×
×
  • Create New...