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2015 Off-season thread


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Just to close the loop on this morning's discussion. I don't presume to know for sure that there is a bias and I don't think it can be proven that there is given all the other factors that are in play.

But I also don't think it can be proven that it doesn't exist at all.

I do believe strongly that if trammell had played in New York or Boston he would have gotten in or at the very least received more support than he did.

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I like twitter because I can personally insult celebrities, sports reporters, and political types who offend me with their idiotic views.

Keith Law, Dave Birkett, and Dean Obdeillah are so far the only people to prove capable of: responding to their critics, and doing so in a coherent and adult fashion.

Maybe it's time to fire up the twitterverse on the blacklisting of American Hero Barry Bonds.

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Just to close the loop on this morning's discussion. I don't presume to know for sure that there is a bias and I don't think it can be proven that there is given all the other factors that are in play.

But I also don't think it can be proven that it doesn't exist at all.

I do believe strongly that if trammell had played in New York or Boston he would have gotten in or at the very least received more support than he did.

Willie Randolph questions that belief.

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Another year where the greatest player in the history of the game isn't in the hall, and we're arguing about east coast bias

I'll still take Babe Ruth over Barry Bonds in the greatest ever discussion

(maybe you would too and the above is just for effect).

Anyway, just to use a couple of stats, context neutral:

OPS+

Bonds: 182

Ruth: 202

WAR

Bonds: 162

Ruth: 163, plus an extra 20 as a pitcher.

Ruth is still, for my money, the greatest athlete of the modern era, mostly for how he dominated his sport and redefined it in the process.

I also agree Bonds should be in the Hall. So should Clemens and McGwire.

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This, I guess, is a difference in opinion between us, because I have no reason to suppose or presume that would be the case.

I will say this is largely a matter of opinion on my part, though it is flavored by who I've seen go in and not over the history of the hall.

I think there are certain types of positional players and pitchers that have historically appealed to voters, and that bias to me seems much larger than regional effects.

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I'd be curious to see if the 3 writers who didn't vote for Junior were from anywhere near Cincinnati or at least NL guys. Ken did not play nearly as well in his NL stint. I think sometimes we forget about those years. Probably some pretty disappointed fans in Cinci. And Junior was really bad toward the end in Seattle.

Somebody needs to compile a list of players who had great first half of their careers and then tailed off but in the end were still considered great. Kaline would be on the list.

Randy Johnson would be the opposite. Dude won more games after age thirty than before age 30. If having to decide a vote between Junior and Randy, many of us would vote for Randy due to his going out on a much higher note.

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I'd be curious to see if the 3 writers who didn't vote for Junior were from anywhere near Cincinnati or at least NL guys. Ken did not play nearly as well in his NL stint. I think sometimes we forget about those years. Probably some pretty disappointed fans in Cinci. And Junior was really bad toward the end in Seattle.

Somebody needs to compile a list of players who had great first half of their careers and then tailed off but in the end were still considered great. Kaline would be on the list.

Randy Johnson would be the opposite. Dude won more games after age thirty than before age 30. If having to decide a vote between Junior and Randy, many of us would vote for Randy due to his going out on a much higher note.

Frank Thomas would be another much greater 1st half than 2nd half.

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I'll still take Babe Ruth over Barry Bonds in the greatest ever discussion

(maybe you would too and the above is just for effect).

Anyway, just to use a couple of stats, context neutral:

OPS+

Bonds: 182

Ruth: 202

WAR

Bonds: 162

Ruth: 163, plus an extra 20 as a pitcher.

Ruth is still, for my money, the greatest athlete of the modern era, mostly for how he dominated his sport and redefined it in the process.

I agree with this. You could also argue that Williams was as great of a position players as Ruth, but Ruth's pitching and the fact that he changed how the sport is played is what makes him the clear #1 for me.

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I also agree Bonds should be in the Hall. So should Clemens and McGwire.

I don't think I agree about McGwire. He should be in the discussion, but I'm not convinced his resume makes him a sure bet IMO. I could be persuaded either way when it comes to McGwire. I'm all in on Bonds and Clemens being in the HOF though.

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I don't think I agree about McGwire. He should be in the discussion, but I'm not convinced his resume makes him a sure bet IMO. I could be persuaded either way when it comes to McGwire. I'm all in on Bonds and Clemens being in the HOF though.

Mark McGwire's career stats absolutely put him in the hall.

Heck, Jim Thome's probably do as well, to be fair (oh, yes, I went there).

Edited by Mr. Bigglesworth
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Come on.

I actually think Griffey is somewhat over-rated, but you are talking about a legitimately great fielding cf that could pop 40-50 HR a year while hitting around .300 and walk a good amount.

He is probably a top 5 CF in the history of the game. He was the mythical 5 tool player.

He is the very definition of a first ballot HOF, and he was a better player than Trammell.

I do think Trammell belongs in the hall as well.

EDIT: Is Ted Williams a first ballot guy? Because he had no post-season success.

I didn't suggest Trammell was better than Griffey. I used it as a comparison to show how little Griffey accomplished in the post season- I said they had the same relative stats in the postseason...but Alan actually had success in the post season. I didn't say that Griffey wasn't a hall of famer. But I don't have a problem with some writers not voting him first ballot. He didn't win alot of awards and he didn't win championships. Those are two things that are always thrown at our tiger players for reasons they aren't in the hall...it's always "not enough MVPs" "not enough batting titles". yada yada yada. Well, it works both ways in my mind. Great player, but I could see dinging him on first ballot for lack of awards and postseason success.

By the way, Ted Williams is a bad comparison. Two time triple crown, two time MVP, 6 time batting champion. He has it all over Griffey in terms of awards....

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I think there most certainly is a coastal bias in the HOF. However, the bigger issue for me with trammell is below. I averaged the stats of the 22 HOF shortstops. Then I layered on Tram's career numbers. It doesn't make any sense to keep him out.

AVG OBP SLG HITS HR RBI RUNS SB

Trammell 0.285 0.352 0.415 2,365 185 1,003 1,231 236

Avg HOF SS 0.286 0.356 0.401 2,335 117 1,055 1,231 272

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I think there most certainly is a coastal bias in the HOF. However, the bigger issue for me with trammell is below. I averaged the stats of the 22 HOF shortstops. Then I layered on Tram's career numbers. It doesn't make any sense to keep him out.

AVG OBP SLG HITS HR RBI RUNS SB

Trammell 0.285 0.352 0.415 2,365 185 1,003 1,231 236

Avg HOF SS 0.286 0.356 0.401 2,335 117 1,055 1,231 272

I think there the bigger issue here is that are some really marginal Shortstop in the hall. Look at Rabbitt Maranville, Travis Jackson, Joe Tinker, John Ward.

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I didn't suggest Trammell was better than Griffey. I used it as a comparison to show how little Griffey accomplished in the post season- I said they had the same relative stats in the postseason...but Alan actually had success in the post season. I didn't say that Griffey wasn't a hall of famer. But I don't have a problem with some writers not voting him first ballot. He didn't win alot of awards and he didn't win championships. Those are two things that are always thrown at our tiger players for reasons they aren't in the hall...it's always "not enough MVPs" "not enough batting titles". yada yada yada. Well, it works both ways in my mind. Great player, but I could see dinging him on first ballot for lack of awards and postseason success.

By the way, Ted Williams is a bad comparison. Two time triple crown, two time MVP, 6 time batting champion. He has it all over Griffey in terms of awards....

Griffey had success in the postseason, too. .290/.367/.580 in 79 PAs isn't too far off from .333/.404/.588 in 58 PAs. How is it that Trammell had success and Griffey did not? Should Ernie Banks be removed from the hall for having zero postseason success?

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Griffey had success in the postseason, too. .290/.367/.580 in 79 PAs isn't too far off from .333/.404/.588 in 58 PAs. How is it that Trammell had success and Griffey did not? Should Ernie Banks be removed from the hall for having zero postseason success?

But he didn't win....again, that's one of the arguments keeping some of our guys out of the HOF to begin with. Not enough awards and championships. Lou isn't joe morgan, who won championships and MVPs. That's all we hear from the pompous writers who think they know it all. Well, I simply turned that argument on Griffey. I have nothing against the guy- wonderful player and a HOFer for sure. But if I'm a writer, don't tell me I have to call him first ballot when he doesn't check every single possible box.

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