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That's sounding likely, i.e. Russia had armed the rebels with them. No doubt lots of Chinese on that flight. How ticked do you suppose Bejing might be?

If this turns out to be the case, and I agree it does seem like the most probable scenario, it will once again show what a sloppy operator Putin really is for guy that is given so much credit as a tactician. This could be hugely damaging to Russia

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That's sounding likely, i.e. Russia had armed the rebels with them. No doubt lots of Chinese on that flight. How ticked do you suppose Bejing might be?

On another board I've seen screencaps of an article from June 29 which claims the separatists captured a Ukrainian base, showing a picture of what certainly seems to be a Buk launcher. I can't vouch for its authenticity though.

Edit: Here it is (unless hotlinking doesn't work.)

BswqORJIgAEoxiB.png

Edited by clark1mt
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I'm assuming if this jet was shot down by Russia it was a case of mistaken identity? Why would they want to shoot down a civilian jet?

I think it's less likey that Russian armed services are that inept or undisciplined, but they have been transferring a lot of weapons to the rebels and AA capacity is something the rebels have huge need of since they are at a serious disadvantage to Ukrainian national forces' air power. I think the Russians feel they have enough plausible deniability if they didn't push the button themselves, but I think as usual that will be a serious misreading of world opinion on the matter.

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Rebels are saying that it wasn't them. They have evidently been shooting down Ukrainian military jets this week, so my guess is got trigger happy before verifying what the target was.

Both sides in Ukraine deny shooting down Malaysian plane | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

since the rebels don't have any aircraft there doesn't seem to be much reason for the Ukrainian national forces to be shooting AA weapons. Their only possible targets would be Russians and you'd have to assume they were crazy to shoot directly at Russian flag aircraft as it would be exactly the provocation they would least want to give Putin.

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BUK info here

Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a mobile track vehicle russian system system with range to 72000 ft. From the wiki it would seem to be compatible with any national integrated system that would have identified a civilian aircraft as such. Of course if the Russians have given these to rebels who are operating them stand alone.......

Try to get the mind of a terrorist...I try to wrap my head around it and cannot. You have a group of people so hell bent pissed off at another group that they kill hundreds of innocent people.

Imagine all the steps you had to go through to make this happen. How many times you had to ask yourself 'is this a good idea?' and to KEEP going with it.

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Doesn't it seem like a responsible airlines would avoid air space that just had a plane shot down the day before?

I'd be curious to see what other - if any - commercial airlines were flying over Ukraine today.

Agreed, I was shocked when I first heard this that planes were still flying over the area.

Quick google search led to: Malaysia Airlines MH17 'shot down' over Ukraine carrying 295 people | Mail Online

"As the drama unfolded, several other passenger jets were flying through Ukrainian airspace on one of the main routes from Europe to Asia for air traffic.

Today's calamity will prompt questions about why the route was still being used given previous incidents.

A UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) spokesman said: 'The Ukrainian authorities are responsible for managing their airspace and the UK or other countries cannot enforce airspace restrictions in the area.

'However, the CAA has previously issued advice to UK airlines on operating in this area and following this incident, Eurocontrol (the European air traffic control body) has issued advice to airlines to plan routes that avoid the area.'

This evening, the Department for Transport in London said flights were now being diverted.

A DfT spokesman said: 'Flights already airborne are being routed around the area by air traffic control in the region. Pilots around the world have been advised to plan routes that avoid the area by Eurocontrol, the European organisation for the safety of air navigation.'

Airliner tracking sites seemed to indicated that traffic was now steering clear of Ukrainian airspace, and other airlines said they would be monitoring the situation, and re-routing flights if needed.

Read more: Malaysia Airlines MH17 'shot down' over Ukraine carrying 295 people | Mail Online

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook"

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Doesn't it seem like a responsible airlines would avoid air space that just had a plane shot down the day before?

I'd be curious to see what other - if any - commercial airlines were flying over Ukraine today.

They were saying most airlines were avoiding that airspace prior to this incident, some still flew over. After the incident only one plane remained in that airspace...another Malaysian plane flying from Paris to Kula Lumpur.

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Doesn't it seem like a responsible airlines would avoid air space that just had a plane shot down the day before?

I'd be curious to see what other - if any - commercial airlines were flying over Ukraine today.

Notams were issued to avoid the Ukraine. But pilots are judged upon economy and the most economic route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lampur is over the Ukraine. Another consideration is the rebels were firing at another target with less of a heat signature. The BUK systems offer three targeting methods (radar, thermal and optical) and if on thermal imaging, a large, further signature might have diverted from the original target to the other.

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White House was just evacuated...security concern. This does happen from time to time though.

Unattended package along the fence according to Twitter.

Plane traffic at the moment in Europe: BsxQ0eiCMAABFuY.jpg

Instead of moving this thread to the political forum could we move the political minded posts to a separate thread there? I'm interested in reading this thread further but filter the political forum.

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Try to get the mind of a terrorist...I try to wrap my head around it and cannot. You have a group of people so hell bent pissed off at another group that they kill hundreds of innocent people.

Imagine all the steps you had to go through to make this happen. How many times you had to ask yourself 'is this a good idea?' and to KEEP going with it.

I don't know if we can go that far with it on available facts to say the Ukranian rebels are terrorists by our conventional usage of the word in that the downing of a civilian aircraft was deliberate. They seem like pretty conventional warriors so far. Let suppose this was Ukrainian rebels. I seriously doubt they would target a civilian airliner. They would have thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military plane flying coming from the west. Which does not excuse that they made a horrific mistake, but that is what happens in wars. No different ultimately from the Israeli's blowing up children or the US blowing up weddings with drones. In fact for all our scruples and military sophistication the US managed to shoot down a civilian aircraft in Iran a number of years ago (and IIRC correctly the CO of the ship involved ended up promoted :dead:). If that is what happened then you have to extend the moral responsibility to those who armed the incompetent if that is also what happened, or the one(s) (Putin primarily?) who instigated the fighting.

Edited by Gehringer_2
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I don't know if we can go that far with it on available facts to say the Ukranian rebels are terrorists by our conventional usage of the word in that the downing of a civilian aircraft was deliberate. They seem like pretty conventional warriors so far. Let suppose this was Ukrainian rebels. I seriously doubt they would target a civilian airliner. They would have thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military plane flying coming from the west. Which does not excuse that they made a horrific mistake, but that is what happens in wars. No different ultimately from the Israeli's blowing up children or the US blowing up weddings with drones. In fact for all our scruples and military sophistication the US managed to shoot down a civilian aircraft in Iran a number of years ago (and IIRC correctly the CO of the ship involved ended up promoted :dead:). If that is what happened then you have to extend the moral responsibility to those who armed the incompetent if that is also what happened, or the one(s) (Putin primarily?) who instigated the fighting.

It was not so much a commentary on this specific instance, but terrorism in general. It may come out it was a mistake, but I am not sure if I would believe it even if 'they' did say it was a mistake.

I just sat there thinking it out.

You would have to know someone who can get you that kind of missile.

You have to negotiate something to get it.

You have to store it somewhere.

You have to get people to help you.

You have to plan it all out.

You have to learn how to use it.

You have to know there is a plane in range.

You have to transport it to the site where you use it.

Through all of that (if it was on purpose) they never stopped and thought 'Man this is horrendous...there has got to be a better way than killing a bunch of innocent people'

I am sure the mind of terrorists sees all these people as not innocent...they are the enemy or necessary collateral damage.

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