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I hate Gene Lamont. I just hate him.


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And without replay we still don't know where the ball was when Santiago touched 3B. Against Francouer Avila got thrown out running from 1B on a relay ad people were upset at Lamont for sending him. It's a no win situation.

But it's also a different situation than Avila. I'd venture to guess Santiago runs better than Avila as well. Texas' bullpen is incredibly difficult to score on, and that may have been our best chance. Unfortunately, since there's no replay, it's difficult to know.

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But it's also a different situation than Avila. I'd venture to guess Santiago runs better than Avila as well. Texas' bullpen is incredibly difficult to score on, and that may have been our best chance. Unfortunately, since there's no replay, it's difficult to know.

We also don't know what kind of jump he got and how hard he was running. They mentioned during the broadcast Santiago was looking towards the corner while running. No way you can look behind yourself and run full speed.

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We also don't know what kind of jump he got and how hard he was running. They mentioned during the broadcast Santiago was looking towards the corner while running. No way you can look behind yourself and run full speed.

Why wouldn't he be running hard? After Ramon saw the line drive off the bat, and it was sure it was going to fall after his secondary lead, he should have been sprinting towards third, and picking up his third base coach. If he's not a good enough baserunner to do that, Worth should have been in the game running.

Edited by alwaysthrowheat
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But it's also a different situation than Avila. I'd venture to guess Santiago runs better than Avila as well. Texas' bullpen is incredibly difficult to score on, and that may have been our best chance. Unfortunately, since there's no replay, it's difficult to know.

And you have to consider that Victor has been scuffling (Lamont has to know Cabrera was not going to be pitched to after the double).

As far as that goes, Cabby leading off actually gives you a better shot at him getting a pitch he can drive.

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The presumption that Lamont defenders operate by is that those who criticize Lamont don't have a valid criticism because they are incompetent to judge and/or are too biased against Lamont to be taken seriously.

Personally, I would tend to trust the compentency/fairness of a fan to watch a play and judge whether it was the right/wrong call (I have not seen the play yet, so I cannot definitively judge for myself at this point) at least as much and probably more than I would trust the competency/fairness of posters who try to judge other people's biases.

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The fact that Lamont has foolishly sent runners home earlier in the year and been criticized is 100% irrelevant to whether holding Santiago was a good call last night. You have to judge every decision on its own merits. For example, the stage of the game, the fact that it was the playoffs vs. regular season, and the runner in question all make this a much different case than, say, sending Avila to be gunned down at the plate in August. By holding Ramon, Lamont knew (or sure as hell should have known) that Cabrera would be intentionally walked, leaving it up to Victor. He should have also known that Victor would be facing Feliz, not Gonzalez. Given how bad Victor has looked at the plate in the playoffs, how much better Feliz is than Gonzalez, and how hard it is to string back-to-back-to-back two out hits, Ramon should have been sent if he had any realistic chance to score. And anyone that would have criticized him for that would be wrong, regardless of what has happened in the past.

What I don't understand is how Fox didn't show multiple angles and replays of that play, given that it cost us the game.

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What I don't understand is how Fox didn't show multiple angles and replays of that play, given that it cost us the game.

They were too busy showing the zany Holland and his mustache antics.

The one where he was holding the Fox sign and making the funny face was so entertaining.

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Sending Santiago there was strictly circumstantial and that's why you must send him there. He had 2 outs, base open at 1st, Cabrera automtically will get the free base, Victor scuffling, and best bullpen perhaps in baseball. Am I missing anything?

Also, everyone seems to discredit the ability of a good slide. Would it have been close at the plate? Absolutely, but there are so many things that can go wrong during a throw to home that can cause the runner to score. That play had to be made.

Also, Cecil, do you know what irony means? I'm not being sarcastic, I even Google'd it for you and provide the definition below. I think you're confused on your analytical comparison between this thread and the thread referring to Lamont being too aggressive. You have to have the same sense of origin of person (i.e. posters) for the irony to even begin to take place. Biff was hitting on this.

i·ro·ny/ˈīrənē/

Noun:

The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.

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We also don't know what kind of jump he got and how hard he was running. They mentioned during the broadcast Santiago was looking towards the corner while running. No way you can look behind yourself and run full speed.

I rewatched it last night from the one angle they provided. He did look at the ball. Secondly, those that criticize Lamont don't even mention the most valid criticism which to me is not moving down the line a bit so he can have a runner round hard with the option to stop him. But even then, I think he would have been out. At best he would have been rounding third when the ball hit the cutoff man. The other thing is that I don't think Santiago has great speed, certainly not the kind that builds going from 1st to home.

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...and how hard it is to string back-to-back-to-back two out hits...

I don't disagree with much of the logic offered in the post this line is taken from. I think a lot of good points were raised

However, the fact there had been two hits has absolutely no bearing on the odds the next person will get a hit, as those events already occurred and at bats are independent events (and it means a new pitcher, as you pointed out). It is akin to arguing a coin is likely to come up tails because it came up heads 5 times in a row. Yes, it is rare to get 6 heads in a row, but once you have 5 heads in a row, the next flip is 50/50, the same as any other flip, independent of what preceeded it.

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However, the fact there had been two hits has absolutely no bearing on the odds the next person will get a hit, as those events already occurred and at bats are independent events (and it means a new pitcher, as you pointed out). It is akin to arguing a coin is likely to come up tails because it came up heads 5 times in a row. Yes, it is rare to get 6 heads in a row, but once you have 5 heads in a row, the next flip is 50/50, the same as any other flip, independent of what preceeded it.

What's this mean in a baseball game?

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What's this mean in a baseball game?

I was going to make the same point. It means that while it might be hard to put together two straight hits with two outs, once the first hit has been made you now only need to put together one straight hit with two out. It's a brand new batter and once he gets the chance for a plate appearance his chances of now getting a hit have nothing to do with whether the person batting before him made an out or a hit. And like Mr. Bigg, I agree with the rest of Ron Burgundy's reasoning.

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I don't disagree with much of the logic offered in the post this line is taken from. I think a lot of good points were raised

However, the fact there had been two hits has absolutely no bearing on the odds the next person will get a hit, as those events already occurred and at bats are independent events (and it means a new pitcher, as you pointed out). It is akin to arguing a coin is likely to come up tails because it came up heads 5 times in a row. Yes, it is rare to get 6 heads in a row, but once you have 5 heads in a row, the next flip is 50/50, the same as any other flip, independent of what preceeded it.

I agree that I overstated the point, and agree with you re the coin flips, but that's not a direct analogy to a baseball game. While each toss is an independent event in the coin flip example, that's not the case in a baseball game. The outcome of a prior AB can effect the next AB, causing the pitcher to pitch differently (i.e., bases loaded no outs in a tie game vs. bases empty and two outs in a 5 run game). Whether that makes a subsequent hit more or less likely will of course vary, depending on the circumstances, but the odds of a hit aren't exactly the same in all situations.

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Hate Santiago for not being fast enough. Hate Kelly for hitting a ball that bounced straight to Cruz. Hate Cruz for launching a missile to Moreland. Don't hate Lamont for making the right play. Ramon would have been dead meat on home plate had he run that stop sign.

Dead. Meat.

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Hate Santiago for not being fast enough. Hate Kelly for hitting a ball that bounced straight to Cruz. Hate Cruz for launching a missile to Moreland. Don't hate Lamont for making the right play. Ramon would have been dead meat on home plate had he run that stop sign.

Dead. Meat.

I don't know how anyone can definitively say one way or another what would have happened given the lack of replays that Fox provided. That's why I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, it's simply impossible to know what would have happened given the one angle we saw last night.

And even then, you are assuming that Moreland handles the relay cleanly and throws a strike to the plate. Just because Cruz got the ball quickly and made a strong throw doesn't necessarily mean that Ramon would have been out. Lots could still have gone wrong (for Texas).

Ultimately, I would have sent Ramon if I thought there was at least a 33% chance of him scoring, given the situation, who was coming up, etc. I'd rather put the pressure on the defense to make a nearly perfect series of plays under pressure, than hope that any hitter (even Miggy) comes through. If the odds were less than that, though, then I would have held him.

Edited by Ron Burgandy
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I don't know how anyone can definitively say one way or another what would have happened given the lack of replays that Fox provided. That's why I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, it's simply impossible to know what would have happened given the one angle we saw last night.

It's not impossible. Santiago is pulling up past third just before the ball reaches Moreland. Real-time camera switches do not lie. Even running through that sign, Santiago is half-way home when Moreland throws the ball from less than 90 feet.

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Sending Santiago there was strictly circumstantial and that's why you must send him there. He had 2 outs, base open at 1st, Cabrera automtically will get the free base, Victor scuffling, and best bullpen perhaps in baseball. Am I missing anything?

How long is Martinez going to scuffle? He is a proven MLB hitter. Whether or not Cabrera gets walked (he has been scuffling too right?) How long before Martinez makes him pay?

I guarantee 100% that if Lamont sends him and he gets thrown out this forum would have exploded.

As far as what you are missing:

Martinez Splits:

-v- Texas: .344

.344 with RISP

.500 bases loaded

There are more.

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