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No, but a poster was arguing that he is not bad at drafting. He is.

That's true but as Deleterious showed, he's not really all that bad. Darko was the big miss but it wasn't exactly as if he had went out on a limb to make that pick. Darko was considered a top 3 pick by almost every analyst and on top of that, the Pistons really needed a big. Of course hindsight is perfect but at the time, it looked perfect.

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I have to admit, this deal has me a little intrigued. Wilcox was hurt last year, which explains his lack of playing time in OKC. Not sure he ever fit in with the system they run in NY. For 2 years and $6 million dollars, its worth a shot to see if he can get back to the 13 and 7 guy he once was. If he can do that, this is a steal.

Whats the thought? Wilcox starts 90% of the games, with Kwame starting against the big centers? I like Kwame off the bench. As a starter, not so much.

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How many GMs have led their teams to the success the Pistons enjoyed during their run? On that record alone Dumars is better than almost every other GM in the NBA. Does it really matter if he got there through draft picks, trades or FAs?

Drafting and the success of a stagnant yet talented core are unrleated ...if you have a pile of money..and can live well from it..it doesn't mean you managed or invested it well..it just means you had a lot of it.

here's another way to look at it..

Paul McCartney is maybe the greatest songwritier of our time. But he hasn't written a great song in 25 years and very few in 30 years...doesn't diminsh what he has done..but he isn't a great songwriter today..

Edited by sportz4life

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Paul McCartney is maybe the greatest songwritier of our time. But he hasn't written a great song in 25 years and very few in 30 years...doesn't diminsh what he has done..but he isn't a great songwriter today..

McCartney's songs haven't kept him near the top of the charts for the past 30 years, while Dumars moves kept the Pistons in the top 2 or 3 teams every year.

Buford has been winning with Duncan, Manu, and Parker for the last decade. Is he a bad GM for not shaking up his core? Until getting Jefferson this summer, he hadn't picked up an impact player in ages.

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McCartney's songs haven't kept him near the top of the charts for the past 30 years, while Dumars moves kept the Pistons in the top 2 or 3 teams every year.

Buford has been winning with Duncan, Manu, and Parker for the last decade. Is he a bad GM for not shaking up his core? Until getting Jefferson this summer, he hadn't picked up an impact player in ages.

Flew, he has been adding useful players for years..he added Hill and Mason last year..

The Pistons haven't been challengers in the league's mind since 2006, they haven't played in the Finals since 2005...thats not exactly recent.

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We made the ECF for 6 straight years with a title and another appearance. That is effing impressive.

Look what Joe D inherited, see what he built. He doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt that he may be able to do it again?

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We've officially rejoined that center cut of dime-a-dozen NBA teams. Who else besides me thinks we might be stuck here for years?

While I wouldn't say this about the mostly realistic fans here, I still find it funny how so many fans of teams that just fell from championship caliber (and are in a transition period) believe their team will be back to that elite level in "just a few short years". Outside of a few exceptions, it's usually a looong time before most teams get back, if ever.

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Flew, he has been adding useful players for years..he added Hill and Mason last year..

The Pistons haven't been challengers in the league's mind since 2006, they haven't played in the Finals since 2005...thats not exactly recent.

They made the Eastern Conference Finals for 6 straight seasons without ONE superstar player! Who else has done that in the history of the NBA? No one.

Again, I'm harder on Dumars than most people (I think he set the frachise back a decade when he missed on Darko), but come on!

Was Jack McCoskey a lousy GM for assembling the Bad Boys and then "adding" to them with the likes of Fennis Dembo, Lance Blanks and Kurt Nimphius? I'd say Trader Jack was still pretty good. So is Dumars.

I think that your expectations are too high for a team without a superstar player.

Take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing, no matter how many complimentary pieces he allegedly assembles (and, IMO, those pieces look better than they are because they have Duncan).

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They made the Eastern Conference Finals for 6 straight seasons without ONE superstar player! Who else has done that in the history of the NBA? No one.

Again, I'm harder on Dumars than most people (I think he set the frachise back a decade when he missed on Darko), but come on!

Was Jack McCoskey a lousy GM for assembling the Bad Boys and then "adding" to them with the likes of Fennis Dembo, Lance Blanks and Kurt Nimphius? I'd say Trader Jack was still pretty good. So is Dumars.

I think that your expectations are too high for a team without a superstar player.

Take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing, no matter how many complimentary pieces he allegedly assembles (and, IMO, those pieces look better than they are because they have Duncan).

Take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing..yet Parker and Ginobli are as good or better than any Piston..I mean does it really matter how teams win..or just if they win..

Here's a question..if you're a 2nd or 3rd team all NBA and a superstar when playing for Denver..why are you not considered a superstar in Detroit..Rasheed was also a perennial all star, a high end player...Tayshaun made the Olympic team..the constant reference to the Piston roster as without superstars is a misnomer..

Never have I seen so many, live on the ECF idea of greatness..they won a title..lost the next season and haven't won a conference title since..being good and competititve is nice..but damn, they won 64 and got eliminated by an inferior Cleveland team..and were smoked in the years following..

Edited by sportz4life

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Drafting and the success of a stagnant yet talented core are unrleated ...if you have a pile of money..and can live well from it..it doesn't mean you managed or invested it well..it just means you had a lot of it.

here's another way to look at it..

Paul McCartney is maybe the greatest songwritier of our time. But he hasn't written a great song in 25 years and very few in 30 years...doesn't diminsh what he has done..but he isn't a great songwriter today..

If that pile of money was earned there is no way that I would consider that the lesser half of the equation of success. That's all I'm saying, Dumars might have done a better job with his roster during their run but no other GM even had his team in 6 straight ECFs.

We need Dumars (who may be well on his way) to wander in the wilderness for a few years before we start comparing him to those whose best days are long behind them.

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If that pile of money was earned there is no way that I would consider that the lesser half of the equation of success. That's all I'm saying, Dumars might have done a better job with his roster during their run but no other GM even had his team in 6 straight ECFs.

We need Dumars (who may be well on his way) to wander in the wilderness for a few years before we start comparing him to those whose best days are long behind them.

Truth I measure success in championships..not ECF particpated in..we have different standards..in fact the idea you are that close to the title and came away with only one is an indictment on the fact you didn't make the move to put you over the top..

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Chris Wilcox - New York Knicks - Career Statistics - NBA - Yahoo! Sports

what part of those numbers speaks to you..is it the fact he couldn't get burn for OKC or maybe the NYK..

The Knicks & Thunder just had better players at his position, but that doesn't mean he's horrible. I'd start David Lee or Jeff Green over Wilcox too if I had the choice.....

He seemed to do alright just a year prior to last season when he was starting for the Sonics.

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The Knicks & Thunder just had better players at his position, but that doesn't mean he's horrible. I'd start David Lee or Jeff Green over Wilcox too if I had the choice.....

He seemed to do alright just a year prior to last season when he was starting for the Sonics.

I didn't say he was horrible..but he is a journeyman at 26..who plays hard occassionally..on really bad teams..he isn't a savior and people need to realize they signed a 4th big off the bench, he isn't a starter.

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There were two possiblities..before the offseason began..make some shrewd trades, some shrewd drafts and some clever FA signings..or tank the season and hope to add a stud next June in the draft..

Guess which road we're traveling down.

We get it: you think they suck. I hope they play well just so you stop crying.

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Take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing..yet Parker and Ginobli are as good or better than any Piston..I mean does it really matter how teams win..or just if they win..

You're right, take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing. Also, take Duncan out of that lineup and all those others players who you are calling savvy pickups are nothing. Duncan makes that team go.

Parker is not a superstar, he's a really good point guard. He wasn't better than Billups.

Here's a question..if you're a 2nd or 3rd team all NBA and a superstar when playing for Denver..why are you not considered a superstar in Detroit..

Here's an answer, Chauncey wasn't a superstar in Detroit and he isn't one in Denver. Carmelo Anthony is a superstar. Billups is a very good point guard. He's a very good player who cannot take over games by himself. And if Dumars is such a schlub, how did he get Billups for peanuts?

Rasheed was also a perennial all star, a high end player...

Rasheed has the talent to be a superstar player, but I belive we all know by now that Sheed only plays when he wants to. Not a superstar. Oh, and another guy who Dumars acquired for peanuts.

Tayshaun made the Olympic team..the constant reference to the Piston roster as without superstars is a misnomer..

Tayshaun is not now nor has he ever been a superstar. Carlos Boozer made an Olympic team. Hell, Christian ****ing Laettner made an Olympic team. Siimply making the Olympic team doesn't make you a superstar. In Tayshaun's case, it makes you a very good defender who can play without the ball. In other words, he doesn't have to demand the ball to play well and, instead, can play an excellent supporting role to the real superstars: wade, james and kobe.

No one is saying the Pistons were devoid of talent, but they were devoid of a real superstar. Instead, they relied upon a set of very good players who each played a defined position and played it well. It was a great roster assembled by Dumars, but it did not have a superstar on it.

Never have I seen so many, live on the ECF idea of greatness..they won a title..lost the next season and haven't won a conference title since..being good and competititve is nice..but damn, they won 64 and got eliminated by an inferior Cleveland team..and were smoked in the years following..

You didn't answer the question of another team who has done what they did. They certainly should have gone to the Finals more than twice, but that doesn't count AGAINST Dumars. Instead it counts FOR him.

I don't understand what else you want. The guy put together a team that made it to the semi-finals six years in a row. did they underachieve in the end? Yeah, but you only find a team that can have that kind of run and then keep going once in a lifetime. The Lakers and the Celtics have been the only teams that have been able to completely rebuild on the fly and stay among the best in the league, and that's thanks to acquiring superstars (Russell to Cowens/Havlicheck to Bird...Wilt to Magic to Shaq to Kobe). The Pistons have done it without that type of player. I don't think it's an indictment of Joe dumars that they haven't been able to keep it going, I think what he did as a great achievement in the days of salary caps and drafts.

In other words, I think you're being too critical to expect miracles in immediately overhauling a championship roster that had grown old.

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I didn't say he was horrible..but he is a journeyman at 26..who plays hard occassionally..on really bad teams..he isn't a savior and people need to realize they signed a 4th big off the bench, he isn't a starter.

Yeah, I don't think he's a savior at all, but he's better than any of the bigs that we had on the team before signing him, so I'm not going to complain about the signing.

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Truth I measure success in championships..not ECF particpated in..we have different standards..in fact the idea you are that close to the title and came away with only one is an indictment on the fact you didn't make the move to put you over the top..

Clippers and Pistons: equally successful in the last 10 years if you don't count the Pistons one championship

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You're right, take Duncan off the Spurs and they win nothing. Also, take Duncan out of that lineup and all those others players who you are calling savvy pickups are nothing. Duncan makes that team go.

Are you going to tell me that Ginobli isn't one of the best players in the world and more importantly one of the best clutch players in the world.

Parker is not a superstar, he's a really good point guard. He wasn't better than Billups.

Debateable and merely an opinion, one that would vary among many NBA talent evaluators.

Here's an answer, Chauncey wasn't a superstar in Detroit and he isn't one in Denver. Carmelo Anthony is a superstar. Billups is a very good point guard. He's a very good player who cannot take over games by himself. And if Dumars is such a schlub, how did he get Billups for peanuts?

Acquired for peanuts..not really..lots of other teams would have taken Chauncey after that last half season in Minny..Joe offered the best place and the most playing time.

I'm thinking if Carmelo is such a superstar and Chauncey is just good..how come cChauncey has been to the finals 2X, won a finals MVP and Carmelo was an underachieving perceived malcontent, who was on the trading block until Billups mysteriously showed up.

Rasheed has the talent to be a superstar player, but I belive we all know by now that Sheed only plays when he wants to. Not a superstar. Oh, and another guy who Dumars acquired for peanuts.

Rasheed was a pariah when they acquired him..but it was an excallent deal.. those type of Dumars moves were a long long time ago..4 coaches ago to be exact.

Tayshaun is not now nor has he ever been a superstar. Carlos Boozer made an Olympic team. Hell, Christian ****ing Laettner made an Olympic team. Siimply making the Olympic team doesn't make you a superstar. In Tayshaun's case, it makes you a very good defender who can play without the ball. In other words, he doesn't have to demand the ball to play well and, instead, can play an excellent supporting role to the real superstars: wade, james and kobe.

Role players dont make Olympic teams..all star caliber players, who are willing to become role players on Olympic teams.. do..

No one is saying the Pistons were devoid of talent, but they were devoid of a real superstar. Instead, they relied upon a set of very good players who each played a defined position and played it well. It was a great roster assembled by Dumars, but it did not have a superstar on it.

The Pistons had 4 all star caliber players and an Olypmic team player..they should have been good..they actually should have been better..in fact if they could have managed LB, they likely would have won another title..what other team in the NBA had 5 players of that caliber?? JD chose the wrong coaches after LB, like he chose poor players in drafts..close, but no cigar,

You didn't answer the question of another team who has done what they did. They certainly should have gone to the Finals more than twice, but that doesn't count AGAINST Dumars. Instead it counts FOR him.

what did they do..they went to 2 finals and won 1. ECF are nice for memories..but what are they really..do you remember the Cleveland meltdown, how about the Miami choke job..the SA give away..

Great teams, win titles..who was better..the Bad Boys or the 2004 team.I mean the 2004 team went to more conference finals..

I don't understand what else you want. The guy put together a team that made it to the semi-finals six years in a row. did they underachieve in the end? Yeah, but you only find a team that can have that kind of run and then keep going once in a lifetime. The Lakers and the Celtics have been the only teams that have been able to completely rebuild on the fly and stay among the best in the league, and that's thanks to acquiring superstars (Russell to Cowens/Havlicheck to Bird...Wilt to Magic to Shaq to Kobe). The Pistons have done it without that type of player. I don't think it's an indictment of Joe dumars that they haven't been able to keep it going, I think what he did as a great achievement in the days of salary caps and drafts.

In other words, I think you're being too critical to expect miracles in immediately overhauling a championship roster that had grown old.

Nope..I just think they could have won more titles and Dumars has rested on his laurels for 5 years..he planned poorly of how to transition the team and his recent record (since 2004) of talent recognition and coaching selection has been subpar..

I have already said I don't mnd the CV/Gordon signings..but remember..they were all that was left..and he had the most money and playing time.

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We get it: you think they suck. I hope they play well just so you stop crying.

Crying..just voicing an opinion..dont like it..dont read it..

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Are you going to tell me that Ginobli isn't one of the best players in the world and more importantly one of the best clutch players in the world.

He's a great player that's for sure. I'm not sure how this helps your overall point. So the Spurs have the greatest power forward of all time along with a great clutch performer at small forward. It doesn't make their GM some sort of genius because of it.

Debateable and merely an opinion, one that would vary among many NBA talent evaluators.

Ok. Do you think Tony Parker is a superstar? I don't.

Acquired for peanuts..not really..lots of other teams would have taken Chauncey after that last half season in Minny..Joe offered the best place and the most playing time.

What? What do you mean he wasn't acquired for peanuts? Joe D got him on the cheap after he had been passed around the league three times and had one god playoff series. Seriously, there is no doubt that Joe D got him for peanuts.

I'm thinking if Carmelo is such a superstar and Chauncey is just good..how come cChauncey has been to the finals 2X, won a finals MVP and Carmelo was an underachieving perceived malcontent, who was on the trading block until Billups mysteriously showed up.

I'm thinking you overrate Chauncey Billups. A lot. I like chauncey, but when the **** hits the fan, he's guardable (ask Sasha Pavlovic, also see game six of the Lakers series this year). carmelo really isn't. Chauncey is a really good player, he plays the point guard position very well, but he's not a superstar.

Rasheed was a pariah when they acquired him..but it was an excallent deal.. those type of Dumars moves were a long long time ago..4 coaches ago to be exact.

So, in other words, "yes, Buddha, you're right, he was acquired for peanuts in a good deal by Joe Dumars."

Role players dont make Olympic teams..all star caliber players, who are willing to become role players on Olympic teams.. do..

Ummm...ok. If you don't think Tayshaun was a role player on that team, I don't know what to tell you. Tayshaun Prince is a good player, he is not a superstar in the NBA.

The Pistons had 4 all star caliber players and an Olypmic team player..they should have been good..they actually should have been better..in fact if they could have managed LB, they likely would have won another title..what other team in the NBA had 5 players of that caliber?? JD chose the wrong coaches after LB, like he chose poor players in drafts..close, but no cigar,

LB would have left the damn team after that year! He's Larry fricking Brown, it's what he does. Hey, I agree that the team underachieved in the playoffs under Saunders, but they still made the ECF three years in a row thanks to Dumars calling the shots.

It's like you think they should have won six titles in a row. Ridiculous expectations.

Great teams, win titles..who was better..the Bad Boys or the 2004 team.I mean the 2004 team went to more conference finals..

What other team has fone to six straight eastern conference finals without a superstar What team has gone to six straight conference finals WITH a superstar?

You can dance around the subject all you want, but you never do answer the question.

Nope..I just think they could have won more titles and Dumars has rested on his laurels for 5 years..he planned poorly of how to transition the team and his recent record (since 2004) of talent recognition and coaching selection has been subpar..

I have already said I don't mnd the CV/Gordon signings..but remember..they were all that was left..and he had the most money and playing time.

Rested on his laurels? What does that mean? Did he stop drafting? Did he not pull in Antonio McDyess when no one else wanted him? Wasn't that a good move? Didn't he let Ben wallace go right before he fell off the table? Methinks so.

Here's what I think: I think you're being unrealistic and contrary for the sake of being contrary. On the one hand you rip Dumars for not drafting well and not making the right moves, then on the other hand you talk about how great the team HE ASSEMBLED actually was.

What was this supposed master move that he was supposed to do that would have taken that team to the Finals all those years in a row? What player was out there that he should have acquired?

You're being ridiculously harsh and, IMO, are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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Are you going to tell me that Ginobli isn't one of the best players in the world and more importantly one of the best clutch players in the world.

Debateable and merely an opinion, one that would vary among many NBA talent evaluators.

I'm thinking if Carmelo is such a superstar and Chauncey is just good..how come cChauncey has been to the finals 2X, won a finals MVP and Carmelo was an underachieving perceived malcontent, who was on the trading block until Billups mysteriously showed up.

Billups must be better than Steve Nash, Dominique Wilkins, and George Gervin, too, since none of them ever made the Finals. Maybe Carmelo became a better player this year because he had a legitimate PG running the team?

I guess the only two NBA GMs who should be allowed to keep their jobs are Buford and Kupchak, and the Spurs haven't won a title or been to the Finals for a few years now, so Buford should be getting close to the hot seat.

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Buddha it's America we all get an opinion..

Billups was a FA..many teams wanted him, they didn't sign him for peanuts like he wasn't a scrap heap acquisition, he had averaged 20/PPG in the playoffs for Minny.

The 6 ECF is the most overated cop out answer ever..what did I want..well 1 more title would have been nice..6 ECF, one title, 2 finals..means they were good..not quite good enough...sound like they lost in the ECF four straight times..at what point did it make sense to stir the drink and make adjustments if not flat out changes

Dumars chose Saunders..was that a good choice?? How bout Curry..Dumars job as an executive was to find a way to resolve the LB issues..he knew what he was when he hired him. You give the guy far too many passes.

As for what I said..it's pretty simple, he assembled a solid core..did a good job from 2000-2005 and then stopped working..good GM's in all sports turn over their roster, see the Red Sox, Patriots, Red Wings..their core changes..all those teams are excellent at player development.

The superstar argument is one that will argued forever..is it harder to guard one great player or 4 all stars..

The next 2 years will answer he question..Did Joe Dumars jump the shark in 2005 and become the Memphis version of Jerry West..or did he resurrect a franchise twice in a decade..

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Buddha it's America we all get an opinion..

Yes, and apparently we also get the ability to use two periods at the end of every sentence. God bless the freedoms we have here in the States.

Billups was a FA..many teams wanted him, they didn't sign him for peanuts like he wasn't a scrap heap acquisition, he had averaged 20/PPG in the playoffs for Minny.

Wrong. The signed him for the mid-level exception. Yeah, sounds like the rest of the league was clamoring to get him. In fact, Minnesota told Chauncey that they would match the contract, but that Terrell Brandon was still their starting PG, so Chauncey took Detroit's offer. Which was the only other offer he had.

ESPN - OTL: The Disposable Superstar - E-ticket

There was no line of teams to sign Billups after one playoff performance. Only Joe Dumars.

The 6 ECF is the most overated cop out answer ever..what did I want..well 1 more title would have been nice..6 ECF, one title, 2 finals..means they were good..not quite good enough...sound like they lost in the ECF four straight times..at what point did it make sense to stir the drink and make adjustments if not flat out changes

No, the most overrated cop-out answer ever is your answer. Sportz, what other team has made it to the semis six straight times? Answer: "That's a cop out." Sportz, what other team has made it that far so many times without one superstar player? Answer: "That's a cop out." No my punctuation challenged friend, YOUR answer is a cop out.

Six straight ECFs is a great achievement. Did they underachieve? I think so. But they still ACHIEVED.

Dumars chose Saunders..was that a good choice?? How bout Curry..Dumars job as an executive was to find a way to resolve the LB issues..he knew what he was when he hired him. You give the guy far too many passes.

I thought Saunders and Curry were bad choices. Guess what? I think Dumars has made some mistakes. I also think he's made the Pistons into one of the best franchises in the League and took them from the bottom to the top very quickly by building off of other team's garbage players.

Nobody wanted Chauncey Billups. The Wizards didn't want Rip Hamilton. The Magic didn't want Ben Wallace. NOBODY wanted to touch Rasheed Wallace. Tayshaun Prince was the 22nd(?) pick in the draft. Mike James? Chucky Atkins? Memo Okur? Who were those guys? Nothing until they came to Detroit and won a championship.

I don't give Dumars too many free passes, YOU underrate the job he did to make the Pistons successful. If you only count championships as a success, you're going to spend most of your life very disappointed in your sports teams.

As for what I said..it's pretty simple, he assembled a solid core..did a good job from 2000-2005 and then stopped working..good GM's in all sports turn over their roster, see the Red Sox, Patriots, Red Wings..their core changes..all those teams are excellent at player development.

He stopped working? How do you know that? You don't, you just made it up.

The superstar argument is one that will argued forever..is it harder to guard one great player or 4 all stars..

Ask Miami, or Cleveland.

The next 2 years will answer he question..Did Joe Dumars jump the shark in 2005 and become the Memphis version of Jerry West..or did he resurrect a franchise twice in a decade..

Well, according to you, Jerry West was a failure when he was in LA too because he didn't win championships every year. In fact, that genius in San Antonio is a failure too. So is Sam Presti, so is every GM not named Mitch Kupchak. Oh wait, he's a failure too because he lost to the Celtics. Darn, why do NBA teams employ so many terrible GMs?:cheeky:

The NBA isn't some sort of fantasy league where you can plug any player in whenever you want. You have to make choices based on the available players. I think getting Gordon and Villanueva and Wilcox is a decent haul given what was available to Detroit.

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They dont give awards for being competitive, like I said you can find glory in the 6 ECF championships, most other teams of quality have made the choice/sacrifice to retool rather than continually fall short of the big prize. If they would have at least made it to the finals, then your premise would hold water. Is being the 4th or 5th best team, at the end of each season some type of consolation prize we should be proud of..

I love how people refuse to acknoweldge that not one notable player has been developed or added to the Psiton roster since 2005 aside from (Stuckey) and what he will become as a finished product is still in question.

The lanscape and methodology of the legue has changed during the decade, GM's like Presti, Pritchard, Morey have expanded of how to evuate production, players and games. How those and other progressive GM;s have crafted there rosters reflect that shift.

Every GM makes mistakes, but a certain success ratio is expected within specific time intervals (use 24 months) go back and disect Dumars personnel/coaching decisons prior to 2004-2008 and let me know how he performed.

The 2009 offseason was like shooting fish in a barrel.

We're not going to agree about Dumars 2004-2008 performance, but we don't need to.

After the 2010 offseason we can revisit this discussion and make some evaluations regarding his legacy. The resume should be easy to evalute.

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What other team has fone to six straight eastern conference finals without a superstar What team has gone to six straight conference finals WITH a superstar?

The Lakers did it 8 times in a row. The fact you don't remember/know that tells me it wasn't that great of an achievement. It's even worse because they won a title in 4 of those 8 years.

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