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Good post. Although, I still think we might make the playoffs. I could see us battling it out with Toronto and Chicago for the 7th and 8th seed. Of course, if that were to happen, I would just rather see us go into the lottery and hope to strike gold with the lottery pick.

There were two possiblities..before the offseason began..make some shrewd trades, some shrewd drafts and some clever FA signings..or tank the season and hope to add a stud next June in the draft..

Guess which road we're traveling down.

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Well, something tells me there are going to be a lot of 115-104 losses in our future. However, it seems to me like Dumars is just amassing as much talent as he can get his hands on. The roster doesn't really have any stiffs on it, and most of the players are quite young. A lot of interesting, moveable pieces that may be attractive to other teams in the future.

We won't be able to play defense. That's for sure. Just glancing at our roster, we might have an average age under 24.

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There were two possiblities..before the offseason began..make some shrewd trades, some shrewd drafts and some clever FA signings..or tank the season and hope to add a stud next June in the draft..

Guess which road we're traveling down.

No shrewd trades, a draft that may or may not pan out, no clever FA signings and we still end up tanking the season?

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No shrewd trades, a draft that may or may not pan out, no clever FA signings and we still end up tanking the season?

Trebeck..What is Lottery for $400

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It's a real bad roster..if you plan on winning anyting.

Sorry, forgot to put a smiley face at the end or put my comment in teal - I was being sarcastic. That's a 30-35 win kind of roster.

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Well..hard to say without knowing what I could have traded for..and unless Joe Dumars is going to divulge who was available it's hard to say.

The Pistons roster issues are a product of years of gross roster mismangament and putrid drafting. 2009 isn't their issue..20004-2009 is their issue.

They have a roster in trasition and a flawed collection of talent..they have 11MM invested in a 32 year old shooitng guard they dont need..11MM in a SF who is 74 in NBA years..and plays like it..and by the way..after teams watch him play the first 3 months of this year..he will have zero trade value..

Their front line plays defense two Vegas strippers ..

Kwame Brown, CV/Wilcox/Maxiel/Jerebko/Summers..I can hear frontcouts across the NBA discussing the fear in their hearts now.

Toss in another rookie coach..and you may have been better off with me than you were with the current GM..

Playoffs..they will struggle to win 35. I can't wait to see how many empty seats are in the Palace when they play Memephis in February.

Ok, so what would you have done with all that cap space they had this year?

Nobody thinks Joe Dumars is perfect, I know I've been pretty critical of him over the years. However, would you have kept Chauncey Billups? Would you have not signed Rip or Tayshaun to extensions and let them walk as free agents? What do you replace them with? Do you wait for 2010 and take a chance that any of those guys wants to come to Detroit?

I think gordon and villaneuva are pretty good players. They're not perfect players by any means, but they're still pretty good. And they're both young and entering their prime. Stuckey is ok, pretty decent for the 15th pick in the draft.

Who else did you think they could trade for? I doubt any of these magical trades that Pistons fans thinks are there are actually there. do you want Boozer for Prince? I don't. Trade for a big man? Who? Kamen? Chandler? I doubt those teams would want Rip and his contract.

Big tiime free agents aren't going to come here. If the Pistons want to rebuild, it's through fleecing someone on a trade (which Dumars has done) or getting a steal in the draft (which he's also done).

So, to me, it's either blow the whole thing up and suck for three or four years and HOPE you get lucky in the lottery, or try to assemble as much talent as you can and maybe swing a trade to bring in a guy who another team doesn't want. We'll see what they can do.

right now, I think this team is between 4 and 6 in the East. That's really all you can ask for without a superstar, IMO.

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The Pistons roster issues are a product of years of gross roster mismangament and putrid drafting. 2009 isn't their issue..20004-2009 is their issue.

I know you've bashed Dumar's drafting a lot, but what exactly do you expect him to do with the positions he's been drafting in? From 2004-2009, Detroit has drafted in the top 25 twice, only once in the lottery (Stuckey and Daye). Stuckey has turned out pretty decent in relation to where he was drafted. He might not be the best judge of incoming talent, but he's not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.

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Ok, so what would you have done with all that cap space they had this year?

Nobody thinks Joe Dumars is perfect, I know I've been pretty critical of him over the years. However, would you have kept Chauncey Billups? Would you have not signed Rip or Tayshaun to extensions and let them walk as free agents? What do you replace them with? Do you wait for 2010 and take a chance that any of those guys wants to come to Detroit?

I think gordon and villaneuva are pretty good players. They're not perfect players by any means, but they're still pretty good. And they're both young and entering their prime. Stuckey is ok, pretty decent for the 15th pick in the draft.

Who else did you think they could trade for? I doubt any of these magical trades that Pistons fans thinks are there are actually there. do you want Boozer for Prince? I don't. Trade for a big man? Who? Kamen? Chandler? I doubt those teams would want Rip and his contract.

Big tiime free agents aren't going to come here. If the Pistons want to rebuild, it's through fleecing someone on a trade (which Dumars has done) or getting a steal in the draft (which he's also done).

So, to me, it's either blow the whole thing up and suck for three or four years and HOPE you get lucky in the lottery, or try to assemble as much talent as you can and maybe swing a trade to bring in a guy who another team doesn't want. We'll see what they can do.

right now, I think this team is between 4 and 6 in the East. That's really all you can ask for without a superstar, IMO.

Buddha, I have no issue with who they added in FA. But it's the composition of the roster and the failed moves prior to this season. They hung on to the dream too long..they chose the wrong coaches, the drafted poorly..The 2009 offseason wasn't going to fix a flawed roster in one great sweeping change of course. Noitce how the FA choices dried up..how they sold the fanbase the cap space argument and then the choices narrowed. 2010 will prove to be more of the same.

Trades..who knows..who knows what Portland or Uath wants to do..

To narrow the timeline down to this offseason is pretty tough without knowledge of the full gammet of choices..So CV and Gordon..pretty good..for what was out there..which wasn't very much..but now what..

Do you trust the new coaching hire?? Next offseason what players will be available..all FA will also be pursued by the entire league, because almost every team will have cap room in 2010...

2 moves transformed the Pistons last title run..The Wallace trade and the Rasheed trade. I seriously doubt that kind of lightning will strike twice.

Which is why..I believe the draft will have to be an intregal part of the rebuilding of the roster..what worries me, is the Dumars administration has never really demonstrated that drafting is their strong suit.

As for this offseason..Joe did the best he could..with the limited choices he had..

Edited by sportz4life

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I know you've bashed Dumar's drafting a lot, but what exactly do you expect him to do with the positions he's been drafting in? From 2004-2009, Detroit has drafted in the top 25 twice, only once in the lottery (Stuckey and Daye). Stuckey has turned out pretty decent in relation to where he was drafted. He might not be the best judge of incoming talent, but he's not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.

Really..was drafting Walter Sharpe instead of either Mario Chalmers or DeAndre Jordan wise..how about the Milicic and Rodney White choices..good??

Look..dont give me the everyone else stinks at drafting argument..it's too easy..smart people..do smart things..go check out what Darryl Morey has drafted..R.C.Buford..heck Pat 'Damn" Riley has done a better job of uncovering low rated talent..

Joe hasn't even done a decent job when he drafted in the lottery, nor has he tried to trade up when the opportunity presented itself..in fact from 2005-2009 he just sat on his hands and did..nothing...

Edited by sportz4life

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Really..was drafting Walter Sharpe instead of either Mario Chalmers or DeAndre Jordan wise..how about the Milicic and Rodney White choices..good??

Look..dont give me the everyone else stinks at drafting argument..it's too easy..smart people..do smart things..go check out what Darryl Morey has drafted..R.C.Buford..heck Pat 'Damn" Riley has done a better job of uncovering low rated talent..

Since you asked me to look it up... Buford became GM in San Antonio in 2002. Since then his first round picks have included John Salmons, Leandro Barbosa, and Beno Udrih, all of whom he traded away for next to nothing, along with Ian Mahinmi and Tiago Splitter. The only notable second round pick since then was Luis Scola, who was also given away. As a scout, scouting director, and VP (since 1994), I'm sure he had input on drafting Parker and Ginobili, but he also used first rounders on Billy Curly, Cory Alexander, and Felipe Lopez since then. For a guy considered to be the top GM in his sport, that's not exactly a spotless record. Neither he nor Dumars are perfect.

As an assistant GM in Houston, Morey drafted Rudy Gay and traded him for Shane Battier. His first rounders since then were Aaron Brooks and Nic Batum (also traded). His second round picks have all been inconsequential.

I can't really comment on Riles, because I have no idea how much of the talent evaluation came from him and how much came from Randy Pfund. I do know that since Riley started in Miami, they've used lottery picks on legends such as Mark Sanford and Tim James. And before Chalmers, they hadn't had a decent second round pick since Rasual Butler.

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I know you've bashed Dumar's drafting a lot, but what exactly do you expect him to do with the positions he's been drafting in? From 2004-2009, Detroit has drafted in the top 25 twice, only once in the lottery (Stuckey and Daye). Stuckey has turned out pretty decent in relation to where he was drafted. He might not be the best judge of incoming talent, but he's not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.

I want to start off by saying that I view Joe D. as one of the top 5 GM's in the game...

Ok. Prince and Okur were good picks. Okur was a sensational pick considering where he was drafted. Cleaves, Sharpe, Delfino and White were awful picks. Darko will go down as maybe the worst pick in NBA history and not picking Carmelo or Bosh (nobody was taking Wade with our pick) cost us another ring or two. Maxiell was not a good pick. The jury is still out on Stuckey and there is no point in evaluating the draft this year or saying that Afflalo was a good pick b/c he shipped him out. Even if I give you Stuckey as a good pick, he is still only 3 for 11 and only 1 of those guys was drafted after 2003. That is not good, no matter how you slice it. He has a good track record of evaluating talent that has been in the NBA for a few years and swinging some good deals. But, he has not been good with the draft. Some of that fault lies with our college scouts, but it is up to him to make the final call.

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I don't think any of these were bad signings. But the NBA is a superstar league. Dumars had a chance to draft Wade or Bosh, blew it, and then let Boston make the deal for KG. Even then, a decent coach could have gotten them another title, and instead he got Flip, who has demonstrated that he is an awful playoff coach.

I think this team could make the playoffs, without anyone close to a superstar, it's pretty pointless anyways.

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You guys must expect a lot more out of late draft picks than I do. Since the 2000 draft, there have only been 7 guys selected after 25 to make an All-Star team, one of which was drafted by Dumars (Okur). White was a bust in a draft full of bad picks. Darko was obviously a terrible pick, but at the time he was considered the consensus #2 pick in the draft. Its hard to blame a guy for doing the same thing most scouts and GMs would do. Delfino was okay in Toronto once he got a chance to play, he just couldn't make the rotation for one of the best and deepest teams in the league. Its not like many contributors were drafted after Afflalo (Big Baby, Marc Gasol, and Ramon Sessions). And being a title contender at the time, Joe had the luxury of drafting for need and we needed a wing much more than a PG or big. There was nobody drafted after Stuckey that would be an upgrade.

The fact that he got a borderline All-Star, perennial starter (Prince), another All-Star that was too expensive to keep (Okur), another young starter (Stuckey), and a rotation bench player (Max, before Curry became coach) isn't a terrible track record to me considering where the Pistons have drafted. To me, that's no worse than average in the draft. I'm not as worried about the Cleaves and White picks because Dumars was just getting started as a GM, hopefully he's learned as experience.

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You guys must expect a lot more out of late draft picks than I do. Since the 2000 draft, there have only been 7 guys selected after 25 to make an All-Star team, one of which was drafted by Dumars (Okur). White was a bust in a draft full of bad picks. Darko was obviously a terrible pick, but at the time he was considered the consensus #2 pick in the draft. Its hard to blame a guy for doing the same thing most scouts and GMs would do. Delfino was okay in Toronto once he got a chance to play, he just couldn't make the rotation for one of the best and deepest teams in the league. Its not like many contributors were drafted after Afflalo (Big Baby, Marc Gasol, and Ramon Sessions). And being a title contender at the time, Joe had the luxury of drafting for need and we needed a wing much more than a PG or big. There was nobody drafted after Stuckey that would be an upgrade.

The fact that he got a borderline All-Star, perennial starter (Prince), another All-Star that was too expensive to keep (Okur), another young starter (Stuckey), and a rotation bench player (Max, before Curry became coach) isn't a terrible track record to me considering where the Pistons have drafted. To me, that's no worse than average in the draft. I'm not as worried about the Cleaves and White picks because Dumars was just getting started as a GM, hopefully he's learned as experience.

+1

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+1

Were just going to have to agree to disagree..drafting 1 starter in 9 years, is drafting 1 starter in 9years. He got zero for Okur and Stuckey hasn't developed into anything yet..Maxiel is another too short, too limited, energy player that was paid more than he deserved and is now untradeable..Good GM's add pieces to their team consistently, the have a knack for discerning young talent. They don't repeat the same mistakes cycle after cycle..Not with players, drafts or coaches. With 24 months we will understand if the first run was more fluke than skill.

Edited by sportz4life

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I don't think any of these were bad signings. But the NBA is a superstar league. Dumars had a chance to draft Wade or Bosh, blew it, and then let Boston make the deal for KG. Even then, a decent coach could have gotten them another title, and instead he got Flip, who has demonstrated that he is an awful playoff coach.

I think this team could make the playoffs, without anyone close to a superstar, it's pretty pointless anyways.

To be fair, nobody would have drafted Wade. He could have drafted Carmelo or Bosh, though.

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I like this pickup. I've been a big fan of Wilcox for a while now, in fact I think I even suggested we go after him a few years ago when Ben left. If we can get Ben for cheap and a cheap veteran PG, I'll be happy.

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I like to complain a lot about Dumars and his draft picks. A lot of people like to do it because they feel the player he picked aren't that good. I like to do it, because generally there was a much better person to be picked and he didn't pick him.

A few years ago I did a statistical break down of each draft position and their average output over their career. Minus Darko, White, and Cleaves you will see his picks perform at or above average for their draft slot.

Carlos Delfino is the perfect example of this. By my study, someone drafted in the 25th slot (Where Delfino was picked) should average 5.2 ppg and 3.3 rpg. In Delfino's 3rd year in Detroit he averaged 5.2 ppg and 3.2 rpg. Right on target with what history said he should average from his draft slot. His numbers were even better the next year in Toronto, suggesting he was probably a above average pick in that slot.

The problem is, Kendrick Perkins, Leandro Barbosa, Josh Howard, and Mo Williams were all taken after him. All are better players. Maybe not Perkins, but a defensive big has more value then a wing player.

Same thing with Max. His numbers are about average for his draft slot. But David Lee was picked 4 spots after him and he is a borderline all star now.

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If picking draft picks was as easy as people seem to think it is why are the Clippers perennial losers? People that still bring up Darko need to get over it already. How long ago was that? A failed number two pick. It happens.

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If picking draft picks was as easy as people seem to think it is why are the Clippers perennial losers? People that still bring up Darko need to get over it already. How long ago was that? A failed number two pick. It happens.

Two words DONALD STIRLING..

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Were just going to have to agree to disagree..drafting 1 starter in 9 years, is drafting 1 starter in 9years. He got zero for Okur and Stuckey hasn't developed into anything yet..Maxiel is another too short, too limited, energy player that was paid more than he deserved and is now untradeable..Good GM's add pieces to their team consistently, the have a knack for discerning young talent. They don't repeat the same mistakes cycle after cycle..Not with players, drafts or coaches. With 24 months we will understand if the first run was more fluke than skill.

How many GMs have led their teams to the success the Pistons enjoyed during their run? On that record alone Dumars is better than almost every other GM in the NBA. Does it really matter if he got there through draft picks, trades or FAs?

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How many GMs have led their teams to the success the Pistons enjoyed during their run? On that record alone Dumars is better than almost every other GM in the NBA. Does it really matter if he got there through draft picks, trades or FAs?

No, but a poster was arguing that he is not bad at drafting. He is.

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