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Hate this but it's exactly right.....


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https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2021/05/is-the-talent-gap-between-michigan-football-and-ohio-state-football-actually-that-big.html

 

This is as spot on as it can get. Being an Ohio State site just pisses me off more too. Lets go Jim! I really hope Morgan doesn't take the stance that stars don't matter in recruitment..... We should be goin Juevos to the wall if you know what I mean on some big time 5 star prospects. That is the only way that we will ever catch up and maybe surpass the Ohio State program......

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I don't know if it will ever happen again. Here are the cruel facts:

1.OSU starts with a huge edge because HS football in Ohio much bigger and more competitive so they have a huge advantage in their home base with good young players who grew up wanting to play in the scarlet and grey. The only time in the modern era in which MI competed with OSU was when we had a unique entry into Ohio recruiting ourselves because Bo, Moeller, and all those OSU/Miami staffers already had established Ohio recruiting contacts and brought them to UM and were able to divert large numbers of Ohio recruits to MI. But that era ended with Lloyd Carr. So that is one mountain to climb.

2.What a player 'experiences' at OSU vs UM as a football player is almost certainly a 'richer' experience in Columbus, in every way - from the level of lionization in the local community to the level of cooperation from the faculty to their star power in the student body, to whatever type of other 'benefits' you may or may not believe are more available in Columbus. However you stack it up, I have no doubt it is basically more fun to be a football star in Columbus than Ann Arbor. So that is the second mountain to climb.

3.UM and OSU are very different institutions. People in the Admin bldg in Ann Arbor care very deeply that the Football program makes the money to support itself and the rest of the UM sports programs. But they fundamentally don't care about football as football. That creates a different level of attention to the operation of the program and mindset in coaching hiring. So that is a third mountain.

I hope Warde Manuel manages to find a coach that can rebuild the program after Harbaugh bows out, but like the article says, the best we are likely to do again is a strong second - strong enough that occasionally circumstances result in a top finish is the best possible outcome I think.

Or OSU could make a terrible mistake next time they hire a coach - we can hope!

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1 hour ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Maybe Clink moves them in the right direction? Maybe?

Is Clinkscale going to start developing QBs and offensive playmakers? Is he going to bring better clock management or put special teams players in the right positions on a punt? Again, hope all you want for any of these cosmetic changes to work. Until the man running the show is gone don't expect any significant changes to happen with this team. We're in Brady Hoke territory now with Harbaugh and god help us all if we end up in Rich Rod territory.

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Is Clinkscale going to start developing QBs and offensive playmakers? Is he going to bring better clock management or put special teams players in the right positions on a punt? Again, hope all you want for any of these cosmetic changes to work. Until the man running the show is gone don't expect any significant changes to happen with this team. We're in Brady Hoke territory now with Harbaugh and god help us all if we end up in Rich Rod territory.

Yeah  - I think Harbaught has to do something I don't know if he has shown and ability to do - which is just be more patient - across the board. He needs deeper commit to players, schemes, drives, everything. He never gives anything time to develop - whether its a drive on the field he short circuits with a trick play, or young QB he recruits then sits for a transfer, or at larger scale the constant personal turn over. His regime seem like a giant expression of a QB with happy feet that became a coach.

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11 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Yeah  - I think Harbaught has to do something I don't know if he has shown and ability to do - which is just be more patient - across the board. He needs deeper commit to players, schemes, drives, everything. He never gives anything time to develop - whether its a drive on the field he short circuits with a trick play, or young QB he recruits and pulls for a transfer, or at larger scale the constant personal turn over. His regime seem like a giant expression of a QB with happy feet that became a coach.

If Scott Mitchell became a Head Coach. I agree with this though, Harbaugh doesn't give players, coaches, or schemes time to develop. He's always onto the next quick fix or doing whatever he feels is necessary to save himself. Meanwhile QBs transfer in and out and fail to develop when they are here, offensive schemes become interchangeable, the recruiting strategy lacks direction, and the program as a whole continues to suffer because of all of the above and more.

I don't know what Warde Manuel, Mark Schlissel, or any booster down at Schembechler Hall is expecting to happen. Do they suddenly feel Michigan will go 10-2 next year and beat Ohio State (or at least look competitive in that game)? Bringing him back only delays and hampers their chances of getting Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell in here. It also gives someone else the opportunity to grab one of these hot coaching names up before they get the chance to. If last season were just an anomaly and we were otherwise trending up in the right direction, then fine. That's not the case though and Harbaugh has been trending down since 2017 really. Last year was the bottom falling out and him getting us into Brady Hoke territory. I'll continue to sound like a broken record, making the same posts with the same points until the guy gets fired, one Fickell, Campbell, Fleck, Venables, whoever is brought in, and the university finally realizes that academic standards need to matchup with recruiting needs as they do at Ohio State, ND, Clemson, and in the SEC.

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29 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I don't know what Warde Manuel, Mark Schlissel, or any booster down at Schembechler Hall is expecting to happen. Do they suddenly feel Michigan will go 10-2 next year and beat Ohio State (or at least look competitive in that game)? Bringing him back only delays..

I don't think they expect anything. In year 7? How could anyone? I believe they expect to ease him out at the end of the year and that was all the contract "extension" was about - getting out of the overhead of buying him out. And if he does catch lightening in a bottle it's a win-win; they'll have been playing with house money. I also imagine then when it does come time to replace him Manuel will tap someone no-one expected.

Also in perverse way, if you really are not interested in playing in OSU's sandbox, another bad season will lower the bar for the next coach to be considered a reasonable success. I think in the end the pressure on the program depends on how ticket sales go. They can talk about winning all they want but If the fan base will stay with them as a second tier team and keep coming to games because they are big social events regardless of the outcomes, they will not feel much pressure to do anything else.

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15 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I don't think they expect anything. How could anyone? I believe they expect to ease him out at the end of the year and that was all the contract "extension" was about - getting out of the overhead of buying him out. And if he does catch lightening in a bottle it's a win-win; they'll have been playing with house money. I also imagine then when it does come time to replace him Manuel will tap someone no-one expected.

Will he? I thought it was a pre-req that the Head Coach had to be a Michigan Man or the boosters and Lloyd Carr would run them out of town. They tried running Rich Rod off from Day 1 because they (Lloyd) wanted Mike DeBord and a Michigan Man in the top spot as Carr's replacement. I'll pound the desk for Fickell, Campbell or Venables, but somehow I think Mike Hart or someone underqualified with Michigan connections will be the next Head Coach, not any of the powerhouse names many fans want and expect.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Will he? I thought it was a pre-req that the Head Coach had to be a Michigan Man or the booster and Lloyd Carr would run them out of town. They tried running Rich Rod off from Day 1 because they (Lloyd) wanted Mike DeBord and a Michigan Man in the top spot as Carr's replacement. I'll pound the desk for Fickell, Campbell or Venables, but somehow I think Mike Hart or someone will Michigan connections will be the next Head Coach, not any of the powerhouse names many fans want and expect.

I have a feeling Manual is in a much stronger position with the Admin than any of his predecessors. Plus the Lloyd Carr group are all ancient news by now. Harbaugh's (and Hoke's for that matter) failure will have pretty much delegitimized the old guard's opinions. O course what kind of pull the old guard may still have on fundraising I would have no clue.

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8 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

I think we need at least 2 years to see how Harbaugh does with this staff. It's only fair. 

He’s got 1 year,  maybe even less if loses to Mel Tucker again. 

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1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

He’s got 1 year,  maybe even less if loses to Mel Tucker again. 

i think he has two.

one year and he's definitely out because michigan will suck this year.  two years and he has a chance.

i think he's gone either way.

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Michigan has become a third-tier program now.   

Can't even get to Indy.   

Their own arrogance did them in.   They stopped being intimidating the second they lost to App State.    Nobody fears Michigan at all anymore.  It's just another game on the schedule and for the small schools it's a way to make some money (and possibly have a shot to win).   

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I think you greatly underestimate MI. This conference is pumping out NFL draft prospects. Its a lot tougher than ever. OSU is on a level of its own. But I think Penn State and MI are right behind (and I still include ND here too even though they not neccisarily with us anymore). But OSU is recruiting 5stars at every level and having some sit for 2 years. Hard to compete with the talent gap. But I wouldn't say UofM is third tier now by anymeans...... We just need a good QB for once....

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Ohio State is only on a level of its own because Mark Schlissel, past President Mary Sue Coleman, Warde Manuel, past AD David Brandon, and the boosters refuse to due what is necessary to keep this program competitive. There is no reason why Michigan couldn't hire a Head Coach (Luke Fickell, Brent Venebles) that could make this a big time program and then allow them to recruit like an SEC school, ND or OSU do. The reason there is a talent gap is because the University hasn't fully committed to winning and has allowed bad coaching hires (Rich Rod, Hoke, and now Harbaugh) and unequal recruiting tactics to drag our program down. If Les Miles had been hired to replace Carr and been able to recruit the way he did at LSU at Michigan, we'd be a completely different program.

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23 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Ohio State is only on a level of its own because Mark Schlissel, past President Mary Sue Coleman, Warde Manuel, past AD David Brandon, and the boosters refuse to due what is necessary to keep this program competitive. There is no reason why Michigan couldn't hire a Head Coach (Luke Fickell, Brent Venebles) that could make this a big time program and then allow them to recruit like an SEC school, ND or OSU do. The reason there is a talent gap is because the University hasn't fully committed to winning and has allowed bad coaching hires (Rich Rod, Hoke, and now Harbaugh) and unequal recruiting tactics to drag our program down. If Les Miles had been hired to replace Carr and been able to recruit the way he did at LSU at Michigan, we'd be a completely different program.

Manuel is on his own. I don't see any likely involvement from UM's top brass in sports under Schlissel other than to fire someone who screws up.

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Harbaugh was the Messiah to most Wolverine fans. I am not sure why you'd label him with Rod an Hoke. I still think Harbaugh can be successful. We just need to catch up to OSU. I'm not sure what you think the school has done from Coach Carr till now in terms of recruiting players. I dont think the school initiated some rules since then thats prevented them from recruiting players. I just think OSU has been pumping out Championships and NFL players like no other. So prospects see that and just want to go there just for that. 

Having said that, I have heard Fickell's name the absolute most. Whether I think he can recruit enough top ranked players, that would be the test. Unless we are getting 4-5+ Five Star players each cycle, its always going to be an uphill battle vs OSU. They are getting these guys and getting them to sit for a year or two developing! That's CRAZY to me. They can start at 99% of any school in the country. Yet the Alabama's, OSU's, Clemsons, Georgia and so on are able to convince these guys to ride the bench for 1 to 2 years.... Thats the part that is devastating. These players are all NFL caliber the moment they step in. And they have NFL ready backups in the second sometimes 3rd string. Thats just not gonna cut it for us. Until we can figure that out, thats what problem we are going to have.

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2 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Harbaugh was the Messiah to most Wolverine fans. I am not sure why you'd label him with Rod an Hoke. I still think Harbaugh can be successful. We just need to catch up to OSU. I'm not sure what you think the school has done from Coach Carr till now in terms of recruiting players. I dont think the school initiated some rules since then thats prevented them from recruiting players. I just think OSU has been pumping out Championships and NFL players like no other. So prospects see that and just want to go there just for that. 

Having said that, I have heard Fickell's name the absolute most. Whether I think he can recruit enough top ranked players, that would be the test. Unless we are getting 4-5+ Five Star players each cycle, its always going to be an uphill battle vs OSU. They are getting these guys and getting them to sit for a year or two developing! That's CRAZY to me. They can start at 99% of any school in the country. Yet the Alabama's, OSU's, Clemsons, Georgia and so on are able to convince these guys to ride the bench for 1 to 2 years.... Thats the part that is devastating. These players are all NFL caliber the moment they step in. And they have NFL ready backups in the second sometimes 3rd string. Thats just not gonna cut it for us. Until we can figure that out, thats what problem we are going to have.

If I had to guess - I'd say a part, maybe a big one, of what we are seeing is that the HS football talent pool around the country is getting smaller, So once the very top schools where they all want to go take their pick, there are fewer really good players left for the UMs and PSUs. Then the feedback loop just heightens the discrepancy between those few perennial national championship contenders and everyone else,  making recruiting even easier for them. And the areas that are producing HS players are concentrated in the south. Columbus is only 100 miles from the KY border, OSU is the southern-most school in the B10 - and culturally closest to SEC country to recruits from further South - at least compared to Madison or Ann Arbor or Minneapolis etc. These trends are nationwide. Look at how far the Pac10 has fallen as a football conference. A direct result of how HS football is contracting in CA, OR & WA.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerpielke/2020/01/28/the-decline-of-football-is-real-and-its-accelerating/?sh=7f42675e2f37

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13 hours ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Harbaugh was the Messiah to most Wolverine fans. I am not sure why you'd label him with Rod an Hoke. I still think Harbaugh can be successful. We just need to catch up to OSU. I'm not sure what you think the school has done from Coach Carr till now in terms of recruiting players. I dont think the school initiated some rules since then thats prevented them from recruiting players. I just think OSU has been pumping out Championships and NFL players like no other. So prospects see that and just want to go there just for that. 

Having said that, I have heard Fickell's name the absolute most. Whether I think he can recruit enough top ranked players, that would be the test. Unless we are getting 4-5+ Five Star players each cycle, its always going to be an uphill battle vs OSU. They are getting these guys and getting them to sit for a year or two developing! That's CRAZY to me. They can start at 99% of any school in the country. Yet the Alabama's, OSU's, Clemsons, Georgia and so on are able to convince these guys to ride the bench for 1 to 2 years.... Thats the part that is devastating. These players are all NFL caliber the moment they step in. And they have NFL ready backups in the second sometimes 3rd string. Thats just not gonna cut it for us. Until we can figure that out, thats what problem we are going to have.

Harbaugh was the Messiah to me too when we first hired him. I was certain he would be our savior. I was certain he'd be an elite-level recruiter and bring us top-tier QB prospects yearly and develop them into top talents. I was certain he'd make us competitive again against Ohio State. I was certain he would take us to at least one Big Ten Championship. I compare him to Hoke and Rich Rod because none of that happened and on top of that, the program has gotten steadily worse under Harbaugh over time and there has been disfunction in the coaching staff. Combine all that with our win totals from last year, a lack of clear direction for the future, and it's hard to see how this thing gets turned around under Harbaugh.

You are right that Luke Fickell, or any Coach at Michigan, will need to recruit and develop 4-5-6+ 5 star recruits each and every year to maintain a competitive with Ohio State. Not only has Harbaugh and staff not been able to do that, the 4 and 5 star recruits he does have, especially at the most important position QB, frequently fail to develop and live up to recruiting expectations. Will Fickell be able to make us competitive against the biggest, baddest program in the conference? I can't honestly answer that question. The one question we all can answer though is that Harbaugh has not gotten it done and appears incapable of doing so in the future.

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9 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Harbaugh was the Messiah to me too when we first hired him. I was certain he would be our savior. I was certain he'd be an elite-level recruiter and bring us top-tier QB prospects yearly and develop them into top talents. I was certain he'd make us competitive again against Ohio State. I was certain he would take us to at least one Big Ten Championship. I compare him to Hoke and Rich Rod because none of that happened and on top of that, the program has gotten steadily worse under Harbaugh over time and there has been disfunction in the coaching staff. Combine all that with our win totals from last year, a lack of clear direction for the future, and it's hard to see how this thing gets turned around under Harbaugh.

You are right that Luke Fickell, or any Coach at Michigan, will need to recruit and develop 4-5-6+ 5 star recruits each and every year to maintain a competitive with Ohio State. Not only has Harbaugh and staff not been able to do that, the 4 and 5 star recruits he does have, especially at the most important position QB, frequently fail to develop and live up to recruiting expectations. Will Fickell be able to make us competitive against the biggest, baddest program in the conference? I can't honestly answer that question. The one question we all can answer though is that Harbaugh has not gotten it done and appears incapable of doing so in the future.

Lets see how this staff does. This is a YOUNG staff and they are all hungry. I think they have a chance to turn this around...... Mike Hart was a BEAST recruiter so far. Clink seems legit. Bellamy seems legit. Should be interesting to see if Morgan changes a lot from the Dudek area...... Thats what I want to see most. 

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41 minutes ago, AlaskanTigersFan said:

Lets see how this staff does. This is a YOUNG staff and they are all hungry. I think they have a chance to turn this around...... Mike Hart was a BEAST recruiter so far. Clink seems legit. Bellamy seems legit. Should be interesting to see if Morgan changes a lot from the Dudek area...... Thats what I want to see most. 

But can a great '22 recruiting class save Harbaugh at the end of *this* year if he goes 5-7? I sort of doubt it. He if wanted recruiting to save him I think he's waited 5 yrs too long to get it in place.

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