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47 minutes ago, kdog said:

The Erie roster has been stripped of most prospects. 

The couple of guys that I still like down there (aside from Wentz) as longshots, are really struggling.

I'll still give long shot chances to Elvin Rodriguez and Eric De La Rosa...

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10 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

... Daniel Cabrera with his 8th HR at WM. Workman moved down in the order goes 2/3

WM going off on Fort Wayne today at 16-1 and it's only the 6th inning.

The players though, are all hitting .195 but have 2+ hits today...

(I'm exaggerating... a little).

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7 hours ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

Not necessarily true.

Even a utility guy could have a "best" couple of years and be an adequate starter. Let's call this guy... Ramon Santiago. It's not that he "just failed", it's that you just want to replace him with something better. He was a stopgap measure that played decent enough to "hold the fort" for a year or two; but you upgrade as soon as you get a chance.

And we have no idea what Kreidler will turn into. He could be an "above average starter" that is not great at anything. Let's say .240-ish hitter that pops 15-20 HR's, has slightly below league average range at SS, but above average glove and arm.

Is that good enough to rely on for an MLB starter or do we want an upgrade? Or is he less than that and he really should be utility...? Like I said, I have no idea....

 

That absolutely is a possibility with Henning. The fan slappy part, that is...

 

I would prefer signing a FA SS.

But I would ask the question: do we go for a shorter term sign (2-3 years) and see how Kreidler and some of the lower level SS's develop over that time period (Santana/ Workman/ etc...) rather than a major (6-10 years for Correa) contract?

I don't have an opinion one way or another at this point.

Although I've been hellbent for Story all season long, this summer...

I've been hellbent for Story all summer as well but I have to admit Kreidler is making me re-consider.  I know that sounds absurd but the reality of sports is that circumstances change all the time and teams must adapt.  I'd still be okay with Story but I wonder if the Tigers would be better signing Verlander instead and then if Kreidler doesn't take another step forward next year, look for a shortstop in 2023.  I also am finding it harder to ignore Story's home/road splits. 

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4 hours ago, Scottwood said:

The Tigers have always seemed high on Kreidler. This is a guess, but it makes me wonder if they have internal metrics on his defense that suggests he will be a plus defender at SS in MLB. They had Kreidler up in several spring training games with Detroit despite never even playing in low A ball prior to this season and then gave him an aggressive promotion to Erie. This promotion to Toledo is also aggressive given that he was only a league average hitter in AA (based on wRC+).  He has decent power numbers for a SS and could have some projection there, but my guess is they view him as a really good defensive player. 

I went back and looked at his draft scouting reports and defense was his calling card.  Most guys his size get projected to eventually end up at third base.  And while I did see a few people mention this with Kreidler, overall it seemed like scouts thought he was going to be able to handle shortstop at the big league level.  

There are always guys that add a pitch or make an adjustment in their batting stance/hitting approach that completely changes their value.  Happens in baseball more than any other sport.  I don't know if this is happening with Kreidler but it would not be all that surprising if it did.  

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5 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Baddoo is a wild card in our future plans.  Will he be as good as he has been?  Better with experience?  Right now, you could pencil him as a platoon outfielder.  I see a lot of similarities to Curtis Granderson, but not sure his struggles against LH pitching will be as severe.  He also might be faster and a better defender.

If you believe Baddoo is a 450+ AB outfielder, along with Riley Greene coming next season or the following and a parade of other guys still in the mix (Hill, Cameron, Cabrera, Packard) and Grossman signed for 2022, do you need to go out and get a free agent OF?  I don't think that is a position that I would pursue, if I were the Tigers.

Across the infield, 2B Schoop and 3B Candelario will be solid starters for at least the next two seasons.  Tork is probably on a similar timeline as Greene (late 2022?).  I don't see us trying to upgrade from Haase and Rogers, with Dingler possibly coming in 2023.

All that really leaves is SS, which, while we have a lot of internal candidates (Goodrum, Short, Kreidler, T. Cruz, Workman, W. Castro), none are either certain or look to be All-Star worthy.  

With a lot of SS hitting free agency this year, we should really look to get our next superstar to pair with Greene and Tork.  

With any luck, guys like Clemens, Paredes and Kreidler emerge, and become valuable trade capital to fortify our bullpen or another area of need, as Dombrowski typically did in a very skilled way during his hey day.

If I'm signing free agents this year, it's one from this pool of SS (Correa, Story or Semien), a SP and one or two arms for the pen.

Whatever Baddoo turns out to be, I think you give him everyday at bats next year to find out.  The downside is I don't really like him as a centerfielder but with Grossman still signed for one more year, I think that is where you got to play him next year.  

I agree shortstop is an obvious position to look at upgrading but that could change in the next 6 weeks depending in how Kreidler finishes the year.  I would add DH to the conversation as well.  Nobody talks about this because it is just assumed Cabrera has it locked down but if he hits 500 this year (which seems almost a given), I think you have to strongly consider moving on from him.  I don't know what average DH production is but I would think Cabrera is well below it at this point.  

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4 minutes ago, Hart said:

Whatever Baddoo turns out to be, I think you give him everyday at bats next year to find out.  The downside is I don't really like him as a centerfielder but with Grossman still signed for one more year, I think that is where you got to play him next year.  

I agree shortstop is an obvious position to look at upgrading but that could change in the next 6 weeks depending in how Kreidler finishes the year.  I would add DH to the conversation as well.  Nobody talks about this because it is just assumed Cabrera has it locked down but if he hits 500 this year (which seems almost a given), I think you have to strongly consider moving on from him.  I don't know what average DH production is but I would think Cabrera is well below it at this point.  

Funny thing is that as much as they protest that Greene and Torkelson are not getting a call up, I could see Avila doing another Jake Rogers and bringing Kriedler up just because SS is such a black hole now. I had thought for sure that would bring Paredes up to fill in at SS with Niko now probably out for the season, but they took that off the table.

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25 minutes ago, Hart said:

Whatever Baddoo turns out to be, I think you give him everyday at bats next year to find out.  The downside is I don't really like him as a centerfielder but with Grossman still signed for one more year, I think that is where you got to play him next year.  

I agree shortstop is an obvious position to look at upgrading but that could change in the next 6 weeks depending in how Kreidler finishes the year.  I would add DH to the conversation as well.  Nobody talks about this because it is just assumed Cabrera has it locked down but if he hits 500 this year (which seems almost a given), I think you have to strongly consider moving on from him.  I don't know what average DH production is but I would think Cabrera is well below it at this point.  

If he doesn't get his 3000, he could still be here next year.

I'm guessing that's a high level possibility as Avila & Ilitch & Co. - just guessing - are not pre-disposed to just dumping him, even after he gets 3000. Not certain if that lasts all of 2022, or also all of 2023, or less than that...

If so, we're pretty restricted - position-wise - with that one roster spot.

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11 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

If he doesn't get his 3000, he could still be here next year.

I'm guessing that's a high level possibility as Avila & Ilitch & Co. - just guessing - are not pre-disposed to just dumping him, even after he gets 3000. Not certain if that lasts all of 2022, or also all of 2023, or less than that...

If so, we're pretty restricted - position-wise - with that one roster spot.

Agreed.  It's the reality of the situation, even if I don't agree with it.  I expect him back for at least 2022.  We'll see how next year goes before making any predictions on 2023.  

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I'm headed down to Toledo tomorrow to check out Baddoo and the boys, and it has me thinking: Three years from now, will the Mud Hens team I watch tomorrow have more members in the Tigers line-up than remain from the current Tigers team?

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Kreidler, HRs on video are interesting.  All hands.  Might be something to him.   That is not scientific. 

Don't say a Tiger minor league SS can't be a great future MLB SS...we just keep trading them away.

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My issue with Kreidler's bat isn't so much his hands or his swing mechanics. They both work well enough (I can quibble with his barrel control a bit, but that's relatively minor in the grand scheme of his offensive profile). My issue comes back to his pitch recognition. I've yet to see him consistently identify spin/soft and react appropriately to it, and that's a considerable red flag when you're looking for him to substantially cut his strikeout rate. Sure, in some instances pitch recognition can be improved with reps, but that's also a bit of fool's gold when it comes to expected developmental outcomes....generally speaking, if you're going to see any substantive growth in pitch recognition, it comes earlier in a player's developmental profile, not later. For a college player a couple years removed from the draft, that's relatively late to see marked improvement in pitch recognition. It could happen, but I wouldn't really put good odds on it....that's really what holds me back from an everyday projection for him and keeps him squarely in the utility realm.

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15 minutes ago, Microline133 said:

My issue with Kreidler's bat isn't so much his hands or his swing mechanics. They both work well enough (I can quibble with his barrel control a bit, but that's relatively minor in the grand scheme of his offensive profile). My issue comes back to his pitch recognition. I've yet to see him consistently identify spin/soft and react appropriately to it, and that's a considerable red flag when you're looking for him to substantially cut his strikeout rate. Sure, in some instances pitch recognition can be improved with reps, but that's also a bit of fool's gold when it comes to expected developmental outcomes....generally speaking, if you're going to see any substantive growth in pitch recognition, it comes earlier in a player's developmental profile, not later. For a college player a couple years removed from the draft, that's relatively late to see marked improvement in pitch recognition. It could happen, but I wouldn't really put good odds on it....that's really what holds me back from an everyday projection for him and keeps him squarely in the utility realm.

This is a very lucid explanation but it leaves me with one other question - which is how do you see pitch recognition tying into swing mechanics? Specifically, is one way a player can improve apparent lack of pitch recognition to shorten his mechanics to give himself more time to look? IOW we're talking about a player that really is not improving his perceptual apparatus, I would agree that isn't happening in anyone's mid 20s if it ever was, but finding a way to better compensate for it? Granted there is no free lunch - the shift may cost the player something else - like maybe some of his power profile. As an example it seems like this is what Derek Hill has tried to do.

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