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2021 Offseason


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This team will be way more fun to watch this year.   No idea what their record will be, but they will compete.  Patricia tore down the compete in this team and made the players hate their job.  Seems reasonable they will win more games this year than last.  Their offense could be good. 

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8 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

But at its premise, is there anything wrong with rooting for the long term gain of this team? Is there anything wrong with rooting for the team to be in the best position possible to draft Howell or Rattler or Thibodeaux or any player in particular?

You had a lot there, but I would just respond that I don't think rooting for the long term gain and short term success of the team have to be mutually exclusive. If we are good at drafting and free agency, we can get better and position ourselves well while still winning games. Along with having consistently good QBs, it's how the best of the best in this league go decades without truly rebuilding.

And frankly we have the future draft capital to move up for our QB if Dorsey sees the next Mahomes there.

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2 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

You had a lot there, but I would just respond that I don't think rooting for the long term gain and short term success of the team have to be mutually exclusive. If we are good at drafting and free agency, we can get better and position ourselves well while still winning games. Along with having consistently good QBs, it's how the best of the best in this league go decades without truly rebuilding.

And frankly we have the future draft capital to move up for our QB if Dorsey sees the next Mahomes there.

I look at the biggest needs on this team as DE/Edge Rusher, WR, S, LB, and possibly QB if Goff doesn't pan out. We need a playmaking DE/Edge guy who can consistently get us double digit sack totals and be a disrupter in both the passing and run games. We need a #1 WR because right now we have a collection of #3 and #4 receivers at the position. And if Goff doesn't turn it around or looks worse, we may need a brand new starting QB.

This next season I think we will get our answer on Goff being the long term option or not while still having the remaining needs I listed going into the next offseason. As I said earlier, I expect them to be between a 4-7 win team. I'd rather root, for one specific season, for the low end of that win total, so we have a shot at the best player and playmaker possible. If that player is a QB like Sam Howell or Spencer Rattler or a pass rusher like Thibedeaux, I'd rather be able to get them without having to trade away our extra 1st and maximize our draft capital or having to worry about 4-5-6-7 teams picking before us being married to a particular player we really want. I just don't see anything wrong with rooting for a loss in the short term if it can help you get a player who will maximize your win totals in the long term.

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That's a really good schedule for those who are pro tank. If Rodgers is still in Green Bay, I'm seeing 1-4 or 0-5 then you have road games against the Rams, Browns and Steelers in 3 of the next 5 weeks.  That's a 5-6 win type schedule, 6 looks to be the high end potential unless we see some serious growth at some positions.

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I was excited to see that we drew the tough AFC North with the Browns, Ravens, and Steelers on the schedule. Add in the Broncos and we have a tough series of games against our AFC opponents. Further add in the NFC West to the AFC North mix for non-conference games instead of a weaker division like the NFC East and we could potentially go 1-7 or 2-6 against those teams. I could see the Bengals as the only sure fire win. Maybe the Steelers are in a true slump now that Big Ben is aging out and the 49'ers won't be anything special, but I still feel good about those games being loses. We are setup nicely for a top 3-5 pick in next years draft and the chance to get any playmaker we want.

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Good GMs don't build good teams because their teams lose and they get high draft picks. We already done this with Stafford, Suh and Johnson. Dorsey built a Super Bowl team while making the playoffs every year. You win games and draft the best players available. 

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56 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Good GMs don't build good teams because their teams lose and they get high draft picks. We already done this with Stafford, Suh and Johnson. Dorsey built a Super Bowl team while making the playoffs every year. You win games and draft the best players available. 

Dorsey had top 10 picks to get his QB though both in KC and Cleveland with Mahomes and Mayfield. Stafford, Suh, and Johnson being top 10 picks weren't the reason this team failed under Martin Mayhew. Martin Mayhew's terrible drafting rounds 2-7, other bad 1st round picks, poor free agent roster moves, and bad coaching hires failed this team. I think the case can certainly be made that Stafford's cap % that he took up relative to the play he produced at times failed this team as well. But in the case of John Dorsey drafting QBs, both of his franchise changing QB picks were inside the top 10 and one of them, Baker, was a top 3 pick.

This team is going to likely stink up the joint next year. If going 4-13 versus 7-10 is the difference between drafting #5 or #12, what's wrong with wanting an extra loss or two so we can get the best talent possible?

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8 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Dorsey had top 10 picks to get his QB though both in KC and Cleveland with Mahomes and Mayfield. Stafford, Suh, and Johnson being top 10 picks weren't the reason this team failed under Martin Mayhew. Martin Mayhew's terrible drafting rounds 2-7, other bad 1st round picks, poor free agent roster moves, and bad coaching hires failed this team. I think the case can certainly be made that Stafford's cap % that he took up relative to the play he produced at times failed this team as well. But in the case of John Dorsey drafting QBs, both of his franchise changing QB picks were inside the top 10 and one of them, Baker, was a top 3 pick.

This team is going to likely stink up the joint next year. If going 4-13 versus 7-10 is the difference between drafting #5 or #12, what's wrong with wanting an extra loss or two so we can get the best talent possible?

Dorsey traded up for Mahomes and Trubisky was taken with the 2nd overall pick that year. The Lions got probably the 2nd best talent in the draft with the 7th overall pick. Win games and find good players. 

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I don't mind rooting for losses if we're down to the last 2 or 3 games and we're already eliminated but I'll never root for them from the get go. 

For one as others have said unlike the NBA you really don't need to have a high pick in the NFL to be successful. Sure if there is a potential generational guy like Lawrence it may be worth tanking to get that 1st pick but otherwise it really isn't that big of deal. 

Also too often in the NFL mediocre teams catch that lightning in the bottle over 16/17 games and make noise during the season.  I'd rather root for my team to be one of those teams than root for losses on the off chance that they may end up with a better player. 

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I will never "root" for losses, but I will recognize that sometimes losing has its advantages. I think hoping your team loses is an entirely fruitless exercise for any game, because you know damn well the team being fielded doesn't give a single damn about precious draft position and is going to be fighting like **** to compete and win every game. Might as well support the guys in your teams' colors who are out there putting their lives and futures on the line for a sport.

If we are 3-13 going into week 18 against GB, I'm going to root like **** we kick those Packers asses and ruin their playoff positioning or whatever they are competing for. But if/when we lose, I'm not going to be super upset, because I can recognize that hey, at least we are going to be in a decent position at 3-14 to draft and beat those f'ers next year.

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I was never one for talk about culture, but after nearly 3 years of Patricia, I'm becoming more supportive of building a winning culture. I want the Lions to win the game they should win and beat a team they have no business of beating. Draft pick be damned. You hired two of the best talent evaluators in the NFL. Figure it out. 

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3 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I don't mind rooting for losses if we're down to the last 2 or 3 games and we're already eliminated but I'll never root for them from the get go. 

For one as others have said unlike the NBA you really don't need to have a high pick in the NFL to be successful. Sure if there is a potential generational guy like Lawrence it may be worth tanking to get that 1st pick but otherwise it really isn't that big of deal. 

Also too often in the NFL mediocre teams catch that lightning in the bottle over 16/17 games and make noise during the season.  I'd rather root for my team to be one of those teams than root for losses on the off chance that they may end up with a better player. 

I think this is overlooked because it never seems to happen here. Even saying we are a 6-win team at most, every year a team that has no business making the playoffs does. Last year alone, neither Washington or Chicago was a good team. WFT was in a really bad division and Chicago caught a lot of breaks in enough games, winning 6 games by a combined 26 points.

Say Green Bay falls apart and starts Bortles as their week one QB, Cousins continues to wow no one, and Fields doesn't catch fire in Chicago. Now say the Lions stumble their way into being (while not some knock-your-socks-off overall team) competitive around week 13, welcoming Minnesota to Ford Field owning a 5-6 record, a game or two behind both Green Bay and Minnesota with a game yet to play against both of them. I don't think that's likely, but it's also not impossible. I'd much rather watch meaningful December football and pick 15th in April than continue to want to gauge my eyes out every fall Sunday and pick 7th in April.

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11 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think this is overlooked because it never seems to happen here. Even saying we are a 6-win team at most, every year a team that has no business making the playoffs does. Last year alone, neither Washington or Chicago was a good team. WFT was in a really bad division and Chicago caught a lot of breaks in enough games, winning 6 games by a combined 26 points.

Say Green Bay falls apart and starts Bortles as their week one QB, Cousins continues to wow no one, and Fields doesn't catch fire in Chicago. Now say the Lions stumble their way into being (while not some knock-your-socks-off overall team) competitive around week 13, welcoming Minnesota to Ford Field owning a 5-6 record, a game or two behind both Green Bay and Minnesota with a game yet to play against both of them. I don't think that's likely, but it's also not impossible. I'd much rather watch meaningful December football and pick 15th in April than continue to want to gauge my eyes out every fall Sunday and pick 7th in April.

I think the 2014 Lions were that team. No one expected them to win 11 games and damn near win a playoff game. 

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my real hope is that two or three qbs in college right bow become standouts and excellent prospects so that the lions can trade up and draft one of them next year.

root for jacksonville and the jets to continue to lose and have the top picks.  lions have those two rams picks plus their own top picks to use as ammo.

or, they might just be bad enough to grab the #1 pick!  but i dont think they will.

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23 minutes ago, Buddha said:

my real hope is that two or three qbs in college right bow become standouts and excellent prospects so that the lions can trade up and draft one of them next year.

root for jacksonville and the jets to continue to lose and have the top picks.  lions have those two rams picks plus their own top picks to use as ammo.

or, they might just be bad enough to grab the #1 pick!  but i dont think they will.

My hope is Jared Goff is good. I can't believe so many people are so quick to give up on a 26 year old former #1 pick who's been to a couple pro bowls and was a borderline MVP candidate. Just go back to 2018 and Matthew Stafford has an 89 QB rating and Jared Goff has a 101 rating and is playing in the Super Bowl. 3 years later and the Rams just get rid of Goff and Stafford is worth two 1st round picks. 

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23 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

My hope is Jared Goff is good. I can't believe so many people are so quick to give up on a 26 year old former #1 pick who's been to a couple pro bowls and was a borderline MVP candidate. Just go back to 2018 and Matthew Stafford has an 89 QB rating and Jared Goff has a 101 rating and is playing in the Super Bowl. 3 years later and the Rams just get rid of Goff and Stafford is worth two 1st round picks. 

Goff's best two years by far match perfectly with Gurley's All pro years. When Goff din't have an All pro running back, he was basically mark sanchez. 

Last I checked we don't have All pro Gurley

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14 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Goff's best two years by far match perfectly with Gurley's All pro years. When Goff din't have an All pro running back, he was basically mark sanchez. 

Last I checked we don't have All pro Gurley

Last I checked Mark Sanchez played in a couple AFC Championship games so apparently Goff can still win in this league. 

BTW, Mark Sanchez very best year as a Jets starter he had a 78 QB rating and 18 INTs. Goff's worst full season as a starter he had a 86 QB rating and still beat a very good Seattle team in the playoffs last year so no Goff is not Mark Sanchez. That's actually a pretty absurd comparison. 

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Aaron Rodgers has five full seasons where his passer rating was less than 100. Matt Stafford has one season where it was greater than 100. Even if his ceiling is a passer rating of 100, a guy like Goff should not be taken for granted.

Also, Todd Gurley’s two best seasons ranked #48 and #124 in yards from scrimmage all time. Pretty good, way better than I could have done, but it’s not like he was a generational talent.

And having a great running back doesn’t necessarily translate to having a successful QB. Barry Sanders had the sixth best yards from scrimmage season ever, and Scott Mitchell finished with a passer rating less than 80. Chris Johnson had the best season of all time and Vince Young had a passer rating of 82.8 and the team finished at 8-8. I bet they would have liked to have Jared Goff over Vince Young. (Also, if the Titans had it to do over again I bet they would have picked D’Brickashaw Ferguson instead of Young.)

Fans want lottery tickets, but lottery tickets don’t win games. Jared Goff has won games. Not from behind like Stafford, but he has won games. 

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Stafford at age 26 had an 85 QB rating, 60% completion, and  a middling 22/12 TD to INT ratio. After age 26 he had a 97 QB rating and 67% completion and went on to the best years of his career. It seems premature to give up on Goff. If McVay is the offensive genius he's cracked up to be, he could have made it work with Goff. 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Stafford at age 26 had an 85 QB rating, 60% completion, and  a middling 22/12 TD to INT ratio. After age 26 he had a 97 QB rating and 67% completion and went on to the best years of his career. It seems premature to give up on Goff. If McVay is the offensive genius he's cracked up to be, he could have made it work with Goff. 

Drew Henson was an object lesson on this one. If you wanted a QB who could make all the impossible back across the field throws that only John Elway had ever made on a gridiron before, Drew Henson was your man. Except that while his arm could cash any check, his head could never get them written, and the guy behind him whose throwing was mostly dunking over the middle is going to the HOF arguably as the GOAT.

McVay thinks he needs to be able to do stuff Goff couldn't, Belichek and Brady, and Montana and Walsh (as just two good examples) have the rings to prove he doesn't really.

Stafford my  be the better fit for what McVay wants  to do, and that's fine, but he gave up so much to get him that it better be a really successful pairing or it was a losing transaction.

 

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Stafford at age 26 had an 85 QB rating, 60% completion, and  a middling 22/12 TD to INT ratio. After age 26 he had a 97 QB rating and 67% completion and went on to the best years of his career. It seems premature to give up on Goff. If McVay is the offensive genius he's cracked up to be, he could have made it work with Goff. 

how do you think goff will do this year?

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2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Aaron Rodgers has five full seasons where his passer rating was less than 100. Matt Stafford has one season where it was greater than 100. Even if his ceiling is a passer rating of 100, a guy like Goff should not be taken for granted.

Also, Todd Gurley’s two best seasons ranked #48 and #124 in yards from scrimmage all time. Pretty good, way better than I could have done, but it’s not like he was a generational talent.

And having a great running back doesn’t necessarily translate to having a successful QB. Barry Sanders had the sixth best yards from scrimmage season ever, and Scott Mitchell finished with a passer rating less than 80. Chris Johnson had the best season of all time and Vince Young had a passer rating of 82.8 and the team finished at 8-8. I bet they would have liked to have Jared Goff over Vince Young. (Also, if the Titans had it to do over again I bet they would have picked D’Brickashaw Ferguson instead of Young.)

Fans want lottery tickets, but lottery tickets don’t win games. Jared Goff has won games. Not from behind like Stafford, but he has won games. 

statistically in the last two years Goff has been a slightly below average starting qb.  

the lions arent going to be a good team, and they have very few receiver options.  i suspect goff will return to being average to a little below average.

that's not a terrible thing for a team like detroit, but i'd still like them to be in position to take a really good qb prospect if one is available.

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