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Mr.TaterSalad

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

He weighs the same as Pitts. If Pitts doesn't run a 4.4, than what is he? He's too light to be a TE and given he's an inch taller than Johnson not really as big. He would probably be too slow to be an outside receiver if he's running 4.6. 

That was the whole point of Jason_R earlier post.  Pitts is light for a TE and big for a WR.  Would he be able to hold up as a TE?  Likely not as a traditional TE, but that wouldn't be what he would be asked to do.  If he runs a 4.4-4.45, he is a huge matchup problem and definitely compares with Chase for the best receiver in the class..  If he runs a 4.6, he's not worth a top 15 pick IMO.  If he runs a 4.5, I'd hope the Lions don't take him in the top 10, but some team will.

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And it's not Pitts role as much as the comparing him to Calvin if he ran a under a 4.5 that I thought was crazy.  Calvin was an extreme athletic freak of nature.  Pitts has to be under 4.4 to be anywhere close to that conversation.

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45 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Yet if we draft a WR at 7, expectation would be less. We wouldn't expect Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss production. 

Good, production, pass catching, points scoring WRs are far more prevalent than they are at the TE position. When you draft a TE that high, given their low positional value, you expect them to be special. You don't draft a player, with that low of positional value, to be the next Austin Hooper or Kyle Rudolph. Are you telling me that if Hockenson turned out to be a 60 catch, 700 yard, 4-6 TD guy that would be acceptable to you? It'd be nice enough production from the position relative to the rest of the TEs in the league, but not relative to where he was drafted at.

I wouldn't except those stats out of a WR that we drafted at #8 either. If we end up drafting Chase, Smith, or Waddle at #7 this year and they don't end up as our main receiving threat (alongside Hockenson) getting 1,000 yard+, 70 receptions+, and 6-8+ TDs a season I will be equally disappointed in any one of them.

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5 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Good, production, pass catching, points scoring WRs are far more prevalent than they are at the TE position. When you draft a TE that high, given their low positional value, you expect them to be special. You don't draft a player, with that low of positional value, to be the next Austin Hooper or Kyle Rudolph. Are you telling me that if Hockenson turned out to be a 60 catch, 700 yard, 4-6 TD guy that would be acceptable to you? It'd be nice enough production from the position relative to the rest of the TEs in the league, but not relative to where he was drafted at.

I wouldn't except those stats out of a WR that we drafted at #8 either. If we end up drafting Chase, Smith, or Waddle at #7 this year and they don't end up as our main receiving threat (alongside Hockenson) getting 1,000 yard+, 70 receptions+, and 6-8+ TDs a season I will be equally disappointed in any one of them.

In regards to Hock he wasn't drafted to just be a receiving threat, so comparing just his receiving numbers is unfair.  Hockenson was touted as one of the best blocking TE's to come out in awhile, he was drafted as basically an extra blocker to protect Stafford and to open up holes for the run game to go along with his receiving abilities.   He wasn't expected to produce like a WR in terms of production, if he did that was a bonus.

Pitts on the other hand is different, yes if you draft him you should expect WR production.  

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If Pitts runs a crazy fast time then he’s gone before the Lions pick at 7 anyway.  If he runs in the 4.6 range or above then he’s a TE (a damn good one at that) and all this talk about really being a WR is gone.  The Lions would be faced with the choice of drafting another TE so high.  
 

I could see the benefits because Pitts is such a stud but I think they could find other places to address that would help their rebuild quicker.  There are just so many areas of this roster that could use a high pick talent more than TE.  

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If Pitts runs a 4.5 or higher I am not picking him over Chase, Waddle, or Smith unless they some how run slower 40 times and come up with major character concerns.

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If you're building around Goff, he excels at short and intermediate throws over the middle, two big TEs could excel. Along with Golladay and Williams on the outside, the Lions would have to have the largest group of receivers in the NFL. Brady has his best years when he had Gronkowski and Hernandez with Randy Moss on the outside. If Pitts projects to be a TE, I wouldn't be opposed to drafting him if the Lions can trade down and get and extra pick and take him in the 10-15 ranges. 

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3 hours ago, 4hzglory said:

That was the whole point of Jason_R earlier post.  Pitts is light for a TE and big for a WR.  Would he be able to hold up as a TE?  Likely not as a traditional TE, but that wouldn't be what he would be asked to do.  If he runs a 4.4-4.45, he is a huge matchup problem and definitely compares with Chase for the best receiver in the class..  If he runs a 4.6, he's not worth a top 15 pick IMO.  If he runs a 4.5, I'd hope the Lions don't take him in the top 10, but some team will.

Yes. People say Pitts is one-of-a-kind. That could be good. But maybe he’s just a “tweener” — and tweeners often have a hard time finding success in the NFL. 

I don’t prefer Pitts as the choice at 7; if they stay at this spot, I would hope it is because they either a QB prospect they love or a game-breaking WR, or possibly even Sewell, falls to them here.

But I wouldn’t be distraught if they picked Pitts. Instead, I would assume it meant they see Pitts as a massive target who will be a mismatch for LBs and safeties in the middle of the field, and who will complement Hockenson. 

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Incidentally, it seems that any Ebron comparisons are not justified. 

I don’t like the catch ratio, but maybe that was more the passer than the receiver. I do like zero drops and ferocious hands. 

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The Lions need to draft the best player available, best talent available regardless of position. As has been mentioned, Pitts is more a big WR than a TE. Florida used him all over the field. He's labeled as a TE because of his size but this guy runs like a WR and runs WR routes. I wouldn't be opposed at all to the Lions drafting him, he's a supreme talent. If they see him as BPA, they shouldn't hesitate to draft him. He and Hock would create a lot of mismatches.

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You have to admit though that after Ebron, Lions fans are gun shy about the whole "he isn't really a TE but a big WR" conversation. We were told Ebron would be lined up by Lombardi all over the field and would be able to run routes like a receiver because he has the athletic ability to do so. And then, when game time came around, Ebron was often lined up tight to the line in a more traditional TE formation. I get it, different player, different coaching staff, but fans (myself included) have the same fears.

Also, if we do draft Pitts, he better create production from the word go. I don't want to hear people clamoring for him on one end and then when the boo birds like myself come out, they say "well, TE's take two years to develop." He's either a WR and is expected to produce as such or he isn't.

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Darren Waller is 6'6 and 255lbs with a similar makeup to Pitts who is 6'6 250lbs. I think more than Ebron or Mike Evans, Waller is the comparable player for Pitts. If you think Pitts can produce like Waller did last season with 1,100 yards, 107 receptions and 9 TDs then I think it is justifiable to draft the guy at #7.

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56 minutes ago, NYLion said:

The Lions need to draft the best player available, best talent available regardless of position. As has been mentioned, Pitts is more a big WR than a TE. Florida used him all over the field. He's labeled as a TE because of his size but this guy runs like a WR and runs WR routes. I wouldn't be opposed at all to the Lions drafting him, he's a supreme talent. If they see him as BPA, they shouldn't hesitate to draft him. He and Hock would create a lot of mismatches.

It's not just Hockenson and Pitts mismatch, but throw in Golladay and Williams and the Lions would have 4 receivers that are at least 6'4. In the red zone all Goff has to do is chose which one he wants to throw the jump ball to. 

11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

You have to admit though that after Ebron, Lions fans are gun shy about the whole "he isn't really a TE but a big WR" conversation. We were told Ebron would be lined up by Lombardi all over the field and would be able to run routes like a receiver because he has the athletic ability to do so. And then, when game time came around, Ebron was often lined up tight to the line in a more traditional TE formation. I get it, different player, different coaching staff, but fans (myself included) have the same fears.

Also, if we do draft Pitts, he better create production from the word go. I don't want to hear people clamoring for him on one end and then when the boo birds like myself come out, they say "well, TE's take two years to develop." He's either a WR and is expected to produce as such or he isn't.

Ebron had the skill and talent, he had issues holding on the ball which were known in college. If the Lions drafted Pitts, I would imagine Hockenson would line up as the traditional TE and Pitts would probably be more in the Jimmy Graham mold. I know we don't want to emmulate the Patriots, but Tom Brady had his best passing years when he had Gronkowski and Hernandez and Moss on the outside. If the Lions think Goff is their future QB, he is at his best over the middle of the field between the hashes. Hockenson and Pitts can create all kinds of mismatches over the middle of the field. 

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6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's not just Hockenson and Pitts mismatch, but throw in Golladay and Williams and the Lions would have 4 receivers that are at least 6'4. In the red zone all Goff has to do is chose which one he wants to throw the jump ball to. 

Ebron had the skill and talent, he had issues holding on the ball which were known in college. If the Lions drafted Pitts, I would imagine Hockenson would line up as the traditional TE and Pitts would probably be more in the Jimmy Graham mold. I know we don't want to emmulate the Patriots, but Tom Brady had his best passing years when he had Gronkowski and Hernandez and Moss on the outside. If the Lions think Goff is their future QB, he is at his best over the middle of the field between the hashes. Hockenson and Pitts can create all kinds of mismatches over the middle of the field. 

I get what you're saying. I like what you're saying, give Goff big, athletic bodies all over the field and 4 tall targets in the red zone. The problem I have, and I know I am too hung up on positional value and draft position, is that Gronkowski was 2nd round pick and Hernandez a 4th round pick. Kelce, Kittle, Waller, Ertz and all of the best TEs and hybrid TEs were all specifically not 1st round selections. Production is production, and whether it comes out of a 1st rounder in the top 10 or a 5th round draft choice it shouldn't matter. But I am just not prepared to pass on Chase, Smith, or Waddle at this point for a hybrid player who could be a mismatch and could lineup wide all over the field and could be the next Darren Waller or Rob Gronkowski or Travis Kelce.

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Davonte Adams, Stephon Diggs, Tyreke Hill, Keenan Allen, Kenny Golladay, Allen Robinson, JJ Smith-Schuster,  Chris Godwin etc. were all drafted late 2nd or later so perhaps we should avoid WR all together then. 

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9 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Davonte Adams, Stephon Diggs, Tyreke Hill, Keenan Allen, Kenny Golladay, Allen Robinson, JJ Smith-Schuster,  Chris Godwin etc. were all drafted late 2nd or later so perhaps we should avoid WR all together then. 

Different argument because WR is higher on the positional value draft chart. Also being a WR, your primary job is to produce on offense as a pass catcher and receiving threat. That is not a TEs primary job or value as they also act as lineman and have the expectation of learning blocking schemes and such. Sure, Pitts may never or very infrequently lineup tight to the line as a TE, but we don't know that for certain yet.

And if you left it up to me, I'd take one of Fields/Lance/Wilson over any of the aforementioned positions or players but I don't think they are taking a QB this year and think they are building around Goff.

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2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Different argument because WR is higher on the positional value draft chart. Also being a WR, your primary job is to produce on offense as a pass catcher and receiving threat. That is not a TEs primary job or value as they also act as lineman and have the expectation of learning blocking schemes and such. Sure, Pitts may never or very infrequently lineup tight to the line as a TE, but we don't know that for certain yet.

The positional chart while useful doesn't mean everything,  ultimately what matters is getting game changers at their position.  

For example  Hypothetically if there is a center available who grades out to possibly be the best center in football or a tackle who grades out at a standard starting LT I'm gonna take the C even if that LT has a higher grade due to his position.

Its easier to come across an average tackle than it is an All Pro Center.

 

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59 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Different argument because WR is higher on the positional value draft chart. Also being a WR, your primary job is to produce on offense as a pass catcher and receiving threat. That is not a TEs primary job or value as they also act as lineman and have the expectation of learning blocking schemes and such. Sure, Pitts may never or very infrequently lineup tight to the line as a TE, but we don't know that for certain yet.

And if you left it up to me, I'd take one of Fields/Lance/Wilson over any of the aforementioned positions or players but I don't think they are taking a QB this year and think they are building around Goff.

Brady, Brees, Wilson, Dak were all specifically not 1st round selections. 

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I’ve updated my latest mock.   I can’t even imagine all the possible mismatches! 

image.thumb.png.bfc84088dd2be68d89c24c84a3b2b042.png

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5 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Some of you think way too highly of 40 times.

When the NFL decides to have a track and field event to settle ties, you'll think otherwise. 

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28 minutes ago, Longgone said:

Some of you think way too highly of 40 times.

Below is an example of why you don't draft slow players in the NFL. Tabor failed at the CB position in large part because of how slow he was and an inability to keep up with the game speed and people he was expected to cover. If Pitts is expected to lineup wide like a WR than he better be running in the 4.3-4.4 ballpark. If he's running north of a 4.5 that's iffy (Davante Adams did I guess) or 4.6 that's a legit concern to have for an offensive skill position player and WR.

usa-today-9237496.0.jpg

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There's tape of Pitts running away from Bama and Patrick Surtain,  if he is fast enough for them he is fast enough to play in the NFL.

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16 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Below is an example of why you don't draft slow players in the NFL. Tabor failed at the CB position in large part because of how slow he was and an inability to keep up with the game speed and people he was expected to cover. If Pitts is expected to lineup wide like a WR than he better be running in the 4.3-4.4 ballpark. If he's running north of a 4.5 that's iffy (Davante Adams did I guess) or 4.6 that's a legit concern to have for an offensive skill position player and WR.

usa-today-9237496.0.jpg

You ever run track? Lowering your sprint time is a lot of technique work, mostly transitioning from a stationary base to full stride. A player who has learned those techniques will run a much faster 40 than another player, and they can have the same on field speed. Also, it's a point in time, just like a pitcher can have his best stuff one day, and mediocre some other, due to training cycles, biorythms, minor injuries, sprint times can vary day to day. Also, 40 yards straight is an arbitrary, non football measure.

so speed, sure, but don't rely on 40 times as a sole indicator.

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