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MLB Cutting 42 Minor League Franchises

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11 hours ago, Keepleyland2 said:

I don't get the love so many sports fans have for relegation. It's dumb. 

Maybe it works for soccer, I don't know.  Personally I think it'd be dumb for MLB to implement it.  I don't understand determining current season playoff chances based off of last season's results.

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4 hours ago, Buddha said:

relegation adds excitement at the bottom of the league and eliminates tanking.  in market terms, it punishes failure and rewards success.

Be that as it may, I have a hard time buying any independent team currently is anywhere near the level of a MLB team.

I doubt many are near AA.

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1 minute ago, Casimir said:

Maybe it works for soccer, I don't know.  Personally I think it'd be dumb for MLB to implement it.  I don't understand determining current season playoff chances based off of last season's results.

It would work for MLB had we done it that way for 100+ years and we would think the way MLB does it presently is silly.

In other words, I think our perception of the best way to do it is heavily influenced by what we had done historically.

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Relegation will not happen because owners will not allow it as they only stand to lose in the endeavor.

Also the minor leagues have to be independent from, as opposed to vassals to, MLB clubs, which also will not happen.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

It would work for MLB had we done it that way for 100+ years and we would think the way MLB does it presently is silly.

In other words, I think our perception of the best way to do it is heavily influenced by what we had done historically.

I agree with your premise in the second sentence to an extent.  It doesn't apply all of the time.  The DH conflict between the AL & NL?  Its been that way since I've been alive.  Its a stupid rule as is.

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12 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I don't understand determining current season playoff chances based off of last season's results.

Not sure I understand this comment?

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11 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Not sure I understand this comment?

The promotion/relegation concepts that I have seen pitched most often for MLB involves the promoted and relegated being split up evenly with the promoted having more playoff teams than the relegated.  And, again, the promoted and relegated assignments are based off of the previous season.

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The way english soccer does it is there are a series of independent leagues across the country that are rank ordered based on skill level, with the Premier League being at the top.  Somewhat similar to MLB, AAA, AA, hi A, low A, except in England those other leagues are independent from the MLB teams as opposed to being farm clubs existing solely to support the MLB team.

In any event, at the end of every season, a set number of top teams in all the leagues are moved up one level and an equivalent number of bottom teams are moved down one level (excepting the top league, which cannot promote up, obviously).

In the MLB equivalent scenario, the Tigers would have been moved down to AAA in the hypothetical for finishing last overall.

Each season leagues play balanced schedules, which incorporate the new teams, so if you were recently relegated or promoted, your chances for competing for the title are not impacted by scheduling.  

English soccer really doesn't have play-offs, per se, but if they had, I doubt they would have fewer spots available for recently relegated or promoted teams.  It would simply be based on which teams had the best regular season.

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Maybe the better way to do it is to have a preseason battle royale amongst all of the mascots to determine division assignments?

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

The way english soccer does it is there are a series of independent leagues across the country that are rank ordered based on skill level, with the Premier League being at the top.  Somewhat similar to MLB, AAA, AA, hi A, low A, except in England those other leagues are independent from the MLB teams as opposed to being farm clubs existing solely to support the MLB team.

In any event, at the end of every season, a set number of top teams in all the leagues are moved up one level and an equivalent number of bottom teams are moved down one level (excepting the top league, which cannot promote up, obviously).

In the MLB equivalent scenario, the Tigers would have been moved down to AAA in the hypothetical for finishing last overall.

Each season leagues play balanced schedules, which incorporate the new teams, so if you were recently relegated or promoted, your chances for competing for the title are not impacted by scheduling.  

English soccer really doesn't have play-offs, per se, but if they had, I doubt they would have fewer spots available for recently relegated or promoted teams.  It would simply be based on which teams had the best regular season.

they have the chase for european spots and the chase to be the actual league champion rather than just playing an entire regular season for nothing but seeding in a tournament, which is what american sports do.

look, i dont think american sports need promotion/relegation.  like you said, we have our own way of doing things.  vive la difference.

but promotion/relegation works fine in europe and adds some extra spice to the season.  and the presence of continental trophies outside of your league (champs league, europa league) add an extra level too and makes the race for the top 3-5 spots as exciting as the spot for #1 or the avoidance of #s 18-20.

american sports way of doing things is just fine.  as is the european way.

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2 hours ago, Casimir said:

Maybe it works for soccer, I don't know.  Personally I think it'd be dumb for MLB to implement it.  I don't understand determining current season playoff chances based off of last season's results.

I don't understand putting half the teams in the playoffs (yeah, I know it's for money).   I don't see how it's smarter than promotion/relegation other than the money.  I like the idea of seeing the best teams rewarded and the worst teams struggling to avoid punishment.  

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I would think that the potential problem with relegation in baseball is that there are so few really good hitters and pitchers that the gulf between AAA and the majors is too big. I don't believe the best AAA team in America could play 400 ball in MLB. Or IOW, the worst MLB teams may deserve to be bumped down, but you are still not going to find anything close to a better team in the minors to take their place.

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44 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I would think that the potential problem with relegation in baseball is that there are so few really good hitters and pitchers that the gulf between AAA and the majors is too big. I don't believe the best AAA team in America could play 400 ball in MLB. Or IOW, the worst MLB teams may deserve to be bumped down, but you are still not going to find anything close to a better team in the minors to take their place.

When the teams get promoted, they get top league money.  With that money, the teams can "in theory" buy players to make themselves more competitive.

The difference in TV movie between the top league and the second division is enormous.

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24 minutes ago, Buddha said:

When the teams get promoted, they get top league money.  With that money, the teams can "in theory" buy players to make themselves more competitive.

The difference in TV movie between the top league and the second division is enormous.

but then you really aren't relegating the team, the good players end up staying in the league and only the management changes? I think you could achieve that in baseball with less upheaval (i.e. loss of team/city ID etc) by just forcing owners to fire GM/manager tandems that finish last two years in a row - or whatever criteria (I'm sure there are better ones that just came to mind first) you want to judge a failed front office with.

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36 minutes ago, Buddha said:

When the teams get promoted, they get top league money.  With that money, the teams can "in theory" buy players to make themselves more competitive.

The difference in TV movie between the top league and the second division is enormous.

I would think that over time, the gap between the majors and minors would disappear, so that it becomes a continuum.  There also wouldn't necessarily need to be 30 teams in the majors, so the lack of talent would not be an issue.  

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20 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I would think that over time, the gap between the majors and minors would disappear, so that it becomes a continuum.  There also wouldn't necessarily need to be 30 teams in the majors, so the lack of talent would not be an issue.  

but that would be my argument for why it's not a good solution. The only way you get a continuum is if you force some of the best players to play in a lower league, and that doesn't really make any sense - to me at least. While in any scheme (for instance as Buddha described) where the best talent is allowed to rise back to the top league despite a team demotion, the gulf will remain large IMO. There are hardly enough top baseball players to populate 30 teams as it is without a big gulf to the next level. Maybe that is not true in soccer. It maybe  was not even true in baseball when there were only 14 teams but it seems to be now.

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I don't think the gulf between great players to a bench players like a Don Kelly is all that great at the individual player level.

Obviously a team of great players murders a team of Don Kellys, but the reality is MLB teams have a mixture of both, and the better teams simply have more of the former and fewer of the latter relative to worse teams.

All that would happen if the league contracted down to a 20 team league similar to the Premier league is some current starting pitchers would go to the bullpen, some current starters would go to bench, and some current MLB bench players / bullpen pieces would be starting in the 2nd division league.

Then we would be arguing about how there isn't enough talent to fill 20 teams, as evidenced that every line-up and rotation has holes and the bench players aren't good enough to start.

Personally, I struggle with the notion there isn't enough talent to go around when the players appear to be much more talented as a group than they were when I was a boy.

Or, alternately, if there isn't enough talent now, then there has never been enough talent.

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And to head off any potential argument up front, I would suggest historically awful teams, such as the 03 or 19 Tigers, is not all that instructive in the discussion on what a reasonably normal MLB team is or should be.

There are always exceptions to any rule or guideline.

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just looking at pitching, when I look at the drop off between #1 and #2 starters and  #4 and #5 starters and consider that the minors start with guys that would be #6 on an MLB team I don't see it.

 

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8 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

What specifically do you not see?

any way that the gulf isn't huge.:wink:

Quote

Or, alternately, if there isn't enough talent now, then there has never been enough talent

or maybe that I probably agree with this.

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Is it important that a league have all the best talent?  NCAA football and basketball have stayed very entertaining without the best talent in the world  

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Well, the PCL was independent and in the 20s and 30s was damn near close to MLB caliber.  The Baltimore Orioles came up with Babe Ruth and Lefty Grove (along with some other good MLB players) over a 6-7 year span or something.  They sold both off because they couldn't become a MLB team and that was how minor league teams made (real) money prior to being owned by a MLB team.  Had there been a relegation path, the Baltimore Orioles absolutely would have retained Ruth and Grove in the drive to become a MLB team, and they would have realized it.  ****, it is entirely possible they would have won a World Series.

Then Branch Rickey enjoyed success in developing the farm system and the rest, as they say, is history.

My point being it is hard for you to see it working with minor league talent because the current system in the US ensures top talent gets funneled up to a pre-existing MLB team.  By and large, all the best players are there now, and if not, it is a temporary situation, like an aging player on a big contract not released yet or a kid kept down for service time reasons.  So the talent line between major and minor league player is clear here precisely because our system encourages that result.

However, if minor league teams were truly independent and had some level of financial stability to access and develop young talent, a clever org in Louisville or Indianapolis or Tallahassee or San Antonio could put together a young squad and break through.  And young players (and young executives) would be more prone to sign with such a club if a relegation path existed.

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