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3 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

But they constantly played the victim card.

They still do...  I've enjoyed their emails.

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1 hour ago, Euphdude said:

This goes beyond Stan and Maroth.  BallMich was ridiculed, six-hopper is ridiculed, and others who voice their opinions that don't jive with core group of posters aren't given the most friendly of responses either.  CV19 has exasperated this problem with the poli-forum, and with emotions running high opinions that differ from what's presented most media outlets are attacked.  

I've been guilty of this behavior too -- again all one needs to do is look at my posting history.

I can’t disagree that a Trump supporter would have a tough row to hoe here. He’s a particularly hard man to support, though. Trump is mean, nasty, bullying, insulting, bigoted, racist, fundamentally dishonest, unprepared, aggressively ignorant, criminal, corrupt, narcissistic, sociopathic, and probably a few other adjectives not leaping to mind at the moment. 

That’s a hard list of qualities to defend, and I have not seen anyone defend Trump in a way that’s graceful, tactful, and dignified, at least in the past year or two. Have you? Nearly everyone I have seen defend him lately, in whatever forum I encounter it, lashes out at people, taking on many of these same qualities in doing so. Maybe Trump turns ordinarily nice people into agitated people when the subject turns to him. Or maybe Trump just draws in people who are naturally like that. 

I don’t know for a fact, but I do know that there have been a number of conservative posters here in the pre-Trump days, guys like ROMAD1 and ewsieg and Mark the Shark and Greenwit—and you, of course—who could provide their points of view without being pointlessly nasty and insulting. Sure, as Oblong says, it could get a bit muddy, but it almost never devolved into the kind of thing the hardcore Trumpers, the people mirroring his worst qualities, had been perpetrating here of late.

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13 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The better trolls drag you in by pretending to post (or say) things that interest you. Or ask questions they know you will respond to. They pretend to discuss a situation with you and then they start expressing their opinions as facts. Refusing to listen to the true facts. Anytime confronted, they change the subject to distort the facts to fit their moronic opinions. Personally, I really don't care how many cases of coronavirus Sweden has. It has ZERO bearing on what's going on in America. It's just a way to distort the facts and confuse the discussion. Donald Trump's tactics. But Hillary's emails....Obama wasn't born in America....and on and on.

I mean, it's a case where someone starts with a conclusion and then works their way back to evidence for said conclusion. In reality, people are supposed to do the opposite.

That's why I keep harping on the quality of arguments... in the case of COVID-19, there isn't a single person in this country that loves the situation we are in. I think it sucks to be in a situation to have to avoid going out and about most of the time. But there is ample evidence to conclude that this virus is much more deadly than the flu, and that in order to mitigate it's spread, the right thing to do is to minimize exposure to the virus so as not to spread it further. Whereas with the argument about Sweden, you're starting from a place of little evidence, which leaves you grasping for anything remotely dispositive, regardless of how much of a stretch it is or not.

Again, I don't know how you square that circle.... I'm not sure why other people should put a governor on their stances on the issues to accomodate those who cannot adequately support their own positions.

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There’s debates, and there’s bad faith debates. It was a never ending game of moving goalposts and circular logic. I’m all for opinions from the other side. 

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1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I think the quality of the arguments being made matters a great deal on this question.

There are a couple of semi-regular to regular posters who post opinions who differ with the general headwinds of the politics board who do so in a way that tends to lead to good conversation. 

Exactly. Very well said. I consider myself a conservative in my private life, I refuse to take on (massive) debt. And I'm into personal responsibility. But that doesn't mean I don't have empathy for others. And I don't blame others for my shortcomings. Also, there are certain facts I enjoy learning from other people's opinions. Whether I agree with them or not, I'll listen with an open mind. And if I need to disagree with them, I try not to be a caustic jerk about it. These are all examples of how to have an adult discussion without it turning into a flame war. But I would like to think even the conservatives are aware that Donald Trump in NOT a conservative? He's played people, like a con man does.

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1 hour ago, Euphdude said:

Let's be honest chasfh -- there is no room in the poli forum for those who support Trump.  

This is true.  There is indeed a double standard with respect to Trump.  There is no room for anyone who supports him as a person and frankly I am happy with that.  There should be room for someone who honestly happens to take a stand on an issue which happens to align with Trump.  I think there is if someone expresses themselves themselves with tact and intelligence.  It's hard though.  These are unusual times.   

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

The Trump situation is really difficult because so many of the people on the board strongly believe that he is such such a vile ignorant person that he is dangerous to the country.  Many reasonable and intelligent people here feel like he is a enemy of the country rather than just a political opponent.  This makes it really hard to accept any agreement with Trump.  It goes way beyond the typical republican versus democrat debates.   Even a politically ignorant and previously disinterested person like myself has a difficult time with it.  I don't know if there is a solution as long as Trump is in office.  It becomes even more difficult when the opposition comes from people who are combative and don't express themselves well.   

I honestly don't know that Stan and M4M are trolls.  They have been on the board for a long time and they  behave the same way in this forum as they do elsewhere.  I have always found them to be contentious and not very communicative and Stan seems like a mean person.  I don't know if it's fair or not that they got banned, but I won't miss them.  

 

I've not been here as long as many of you, but Stan is the first (and only) poster I that ever "ignored". And in general I've advised others to take that course instead of engaging in a lot of fruitless counter posting. OTOH, I understand that since this is a more or less public place people feel they must engage to challenge bad information - sort of like you wouldn't like advertising signs for defective products left stuck in your front lawn by passersby. Ironically yesterday was the 1st time I had read and responded to one of his posts in probably years.

I disagree that it is about opinions per se, It's maybe a little hard to capture but the best way I can think to put it is that for me, what puts poster on my bad list is when they want to advertise what they think instead of discuss what they think. 

Maroth struck me as different kind of case - the issue to me there was less his logic or positions as that he was just becoming very mean spirited - which IIRC was the situation with S4L as well.

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15 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

The better trolls drag you in by pretending to post (or say) things that interest you. Or ask questions they know you will respond to. They pretend to discuss a situation with you and then they start expressing their opinions as facts. Refusing to listen to the true facts. Anytime confronted, they change the subject to distort the facts to fit their moronic opinions. Personally, I really don't care how many cases of coronavirus Sweden has. It has ZERO bearing on what's going on in America. It's just a way to distort the facts and confuse the discussion. Donald Trump's tactics. But Hillary's emails....Obama wasn't born in America....and on and on.

I think of a troll as a someone who creates a fake internet persona with the intent of pissing people off.  If someone is contentious all the time and continues to be so on the internet, I wouldn't call them a troll.  I find that some people are just not capable of an honest give and take.  

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19 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

 

Yep.

Nah, anyone of any persuasion can come here and post - just don't expect everyone to love what you're saying - which happens to be exactly how it's been for 15+ years.  

That only trolls self-select to come here and post in support of Trump has nothing to do with norms of the forum.  I'd argue it's more indicative of Trump supporter tactics - I mean, they explicitly troll as part of their strategy on a national level. 

Clearly a chickens roosting at home situation.   A reaping what ye sowed situation.  

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So the trolls are gone and everyone is rejoicing.  How about that!  Yet, these same happy people engaged them for over 3000 pages and almost 4 years.  Who's the chump here?

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22 minutes ago, tigerbomb13 said:

There’s debates, and there’s bad faith debates. It was a never ending game of moving goalposts and circular logic. I’m all for opinions from the other side. 

This is probably as succinct an explanation as any I have seen that captures the irritation from my side.

As to the double standard with regards to Trump, I think that could be debated endlessly.  His behaviors and speech make him very, very easy to criticize.  On the other hand, the velocity of regressing norms has made it such that there are things he does and says that few bat an eye at, yet had literally *any other president or presidential candidate* done or said what he did, it would be front page news and they would be eviscerated by their political enemies.

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 I’m not really enjoying being in a position of having to defend what I’ve done regarding suspensions of posters here. But I’m going to defend myself. I could give a **** what their position politically was, but what I saw was really horrible behavior and how they responded to people and how they perpetually tried to anger, taunt, and annoy for no other reason then it gave them a laugh. When I saw things that I felt were beyond the pale, I gave them timeouts.

....And then ..... I had to sit back and watch them change their  avatars to indicate that I was unfair and this is biased and it’s because they don’t agree with the groupthink. Well **** that. I did what I thought was best for the community here. 

 And that’s what I plan to continue to do. Eventually. Right now I’m still grieving the loss of my father and it pains me to read this kind of ****. So I’ll see you guys eventually. 

Peace out.

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2 minutes ago, screwball said:

So the trolls are gone and everyone is rejoicing.  How about that!  Yet, these same happy people engaged them for over 3000 pages and almost 4 years.  Who's the chump here?

I am

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12 minutes ago, pfife said:

Nah, anyone of any persuasion can come here and post - just don't expect everyone to love what you're saying - which happens to be exactly how it's been for 15+ years.  

BTW, MotownSports.com is celebrating our 20th anniversary next month on May 15th.  Twenty years... imagine that!

However, our time is short without the ad money that both stanpapi and MAROTH4MVP drove to this website.  It was a good ride...

 

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8 minutes ago, screwball said:

So the trolls are gone and everyone is rejoicing.  How about that!  Yet, these same happy people engaged them for over 3000 pages and almost 4 years.  Who's the chump here?

look at it as post porn.

:wink:

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6 minutes ago, MotownWebGuy said:

BTW, MotownSports.com is celebrating our 20th anniversary next month on May 15th.  Twenty years... imagine that!

However, our time is short without the ad money that both stanpapi and MAROTH4MVP drove to this website.  It was a good ride...

 

I remember announcing the birth of my son on this site.... he'll be 20 in December.

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2 hours ago, pfife said:

I've been soiling the political forum here for over 15 years, 50 some thousand posts (god I'm a loser)

Truer words have never been spoken

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18 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think of a troll as a someone who creates a fake internet persona with the intent of pissing people off.  If someone is contentious all the time and continues to be so on the internet, I wouldn't call them a troll.  I find that some people are just not capable of an honest give and take.  

I saw it the other day when he specifically called you out because he knows your great at statistics. He was pulling you into a discussion to get a response. That's what the better trolls do, they engage someone by knowing their strengths and playing into them. And then turn things around by distortion and distraction. When you explain a simple fact to someone, over and over, it gets very frustrating when they either ignore it or distort it to fit their distorted reality.

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Just now, Sports_Freak said:

I saw it the other day when he specifically called you out because he knows your great at statistics. He was pulling you into a discussion to get a response. That's what the better trolls do, they engage someone by knowing their strengths and playing into them. And then turn things around by distortion and distraction. When you explain a simple fact to someone, over and over, it gets very frustrating when they either ignore it or distort it to fit their distorted reality.

I've heard this one before too... seen on Facebook a lot:

"______, I know your a numbers guy, take a look at [insert bad or misinterpreted data]"

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I think you're all ******* and *** ******** and Tiger337 ****  is ******.  So **** ******** on a Harley Davidson.  **** it.

Spoken as the most boring, mild mannered ***hole who ever wielded a keyboard.

I really miss baseball.

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18 minutes ago, screwball said:

So the trolls are gone and everyone is rejoicing.  How about that!  Yet, these same happy people engaged them for over 3000 pages and almost 4 years.  Who's the chump here?

We are all chumps, but it's fun.    

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1 minute ago, apabruce said:

I think you're all ******* and *** ******** and Tiger337 ****  is ******.  So **** ******** on a Harley Davidson.  **** it.

Spoken as the most boring, mild mannered ***hole who ever wielded a keyboard.

I really miss baseball.

LMAO

You and me and millions of other people.

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

This is probably as succinct an explanation as any I have seen that captures the irritation from my side.

As to the double standard with regards to Trump, I think that could be debated endlessly.  His behaviors and speech make him very, very easy to criticize.  On the other hand, the velocity of regressing norms has made it such that there are things he does and says that few bat an eye at, yet had literally *any other president or presidential candidate* done or said what he did, it would be front page news and they would be eviscerated by their political enemies.

This really isn't acknowledged enough.

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Trump-based threads are going to be a lot shorter now.

Hopefully, he won't be around much longer so that shouldn't be a problem. If somehow he gets reelected,  I'll move to Sweden (where nobody ever gets sick) and not allow myself internet access or watch TV. Or...maybe not.  ?

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