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4 minutes ago, Buddha said:

baloney.  if you think abortion is legalized murder its almost a duty to try and stop it.

That was what changed my opinion years ago... Michael Kinsley brought that analogy to me and it changed my tune.  

 

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24 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Apropos of nothing, but your comment applies to a number of people for which abortion is not something that applies to their bodies (ie. men)

I interpret this comment to be saying that most women who do decide to have abortion generally have a negative experience with it? Is that accurate?

its not your body so you cant have an opinion is not a valid argument, imo.  we have innumerable laws that restrict what people can do with their bodies.

as to your second paragraph, it depends whose research on the subject you believe!  lol.  unsurprisingly, the research from anti abortion groups differs from that of pro abortion groups.

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2 minutes ago, Oblong said:

That was what changed my opinion years ago... Michael Kinsley brought that analogy to me and it changed my tune.  

 

me too.

also, having kids changed my opinion too.

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4 minutes ago, Buddha said:

its not your body so you cant have an opinion is not a valid argument, imo.  we have innumerable laws that restrict what people can do with their bodies.

Never claimed that it was, Chief. But it is a pretty significant distinction between abortion and the use of masks.

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18 minutes ago, Oblong said:

ugh.... sorry for my involvement in derailing things.... abortion debates are the worst.

It's the absolute worst subject.

Most people are smack dab in the middle on this issue, yet the debates tend to be at the extremes.

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55 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I think social stigmatization plays a big factor, but I also think many women question whether they are doing the right thing separate from the stigma.

Is it OK to kill a fly? Can a fly can feel more than a zygote?  A mouse?   Most people agree that killing cats and dogs is a bad thing.  What determines whether killing an organism is bad or not?   

Your moral compass I guess.  I know that may sound like a cop out answer, but I am not real sure what another answer could be. This sounds stupid to say out loud, but when I find spiders or flies in my house (rarely) I do my best to schoo them out a window or something before just pounding them.

The only real exception to that (for me anyway) is cockroaches or ants in my house.

For some of us die hard against abortion it can become easy to dismiss the struggle a woman would have with a decision like this.  I think the fact they do struggle does add weight to the side of the argument that says it is not a good thing.  Not something that SHOULD be legal to do.

I fall back on adoption all the time.  I do not see a huge downside to a healthy woman carrying the baby as long as necessary and letting a couple who wants the baby to adopt them.  My wife has been pregnant twice, once with twins.  I know it is not an easy thing to do, but would the woman be better off in the end carrying the baby to term (maybe qualifying for some kind of cosmetic surgery credit or something if that is super important to them) and letting a couple who really wants a baby to take care of them?

As die hard as I am in favor of making the procedure illegal I am NOT one of those who say "at all costs", if the womans life is in jeopardy or other unsavory complications arise I am not against doing what is best for the woman in those cases.

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8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Never claimed that it was, Chief.

My bad Bro.

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13 minutes ago, Buddha said:

as to your second paragraph, it depends whose research on the subject you believe!  lol.  unsurprisingly, the research from anti abortion groups differs from that of pro abortion groups.

Indeed.... the upshot being, contra going out and declaring "most women who decided to have an abortion have bad experiences with it", that it's pretty inconclusive as to whether most women who have abortions feel that way or not.

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15 minutes ago, Buddha said:

its not your body so you cant have an opinion is not a valid argument, imo.  we have innumerable laws that restrict what people can do with their bodies.

as to your second paragraph, it depends whose research on the subject you believe!  lol.  unsurprisingly, the research from anti abortion groups differs from that of pro abortion groups.

Yeah that argument is just lazy IMO.

As far as most women having a negative experience....Lee just mentioned that was his feeling on it and since he seems to lean in the direction of letting the woman choose, is a stat nerd, and usually pretty level headed I just went with it for the sake of my conversation with him.

FTR: I think he is a 100% correct that most women who are in a situation to have to abort end up generally feeling bad about it.

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19 minutes ago, Oblong said:

That was what changed my opinion years ago... Michael Kinsley brought that analogy to me and it changed my tune.  

 

I hate when the conversation gets to "Well if you think it is murder why are you not killing Doctors who perform them or restraining women going into clinics!" etc.  I have heard that malarkey more than once when the conversation starts to get heated.

As if violence is an answer to violence.

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Just now, mtutiger said:

Indeed.... the upshot being, contra going out and declaring "most women who decided to have an abortion have bad experiences with it", that it's pretty inconclusive as to whether most women who have abortions feel that way or not.

i think that's right.

ive known women who had abortions who were torn up about it and others who dont think twice about it.  treat it as a medical procedure.  ive even known women who mocked it and celebrated it (which i find disgusting but i dont think thats a common thing).

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7 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Yeah that argument is just lazy IMO.

As far as most women having a negative experience....Lee just mentioned that was his feeling on it and since he seems to lean in the direction of letting the woman choose, is a stat nerd, and usually pretty level headed I just went with it for the sake of my conversation with him.

FTR: I think he is a 100% correct that most women who are in a situation to have to abort end up generally feeling bad about it.

I would imagine that the vast majority, if not almost every, woman who gets an abortion isn't doing because it's an enjoyable experience.

But I do think there's a distinction between that and it being most feeling that it getting one was a "negative experience".... that implies regret. And I'd imagine it's inconclusive as to how many regret one after having had it.

4 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i think that's right.

ive known women who had abortions who were torn up about it and others who dont think twice about it.  treat it as a medical procedure.  ive even known women who mocked it and celebrated it (which i find disgusting but i dont think thats a common thing).

This is basically the point I'm trying to make to JBK above, probably less eloquently.

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1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

This is 100% bullsh|t; this is what the fake "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" do; try to torture women pre-abortion

this is 100% about control - do you think the GOP gives a damn about about the fetus after it is born?

look at what China is currently doing to the Uyghurs; look at what Ceausescu did to Romania;

controlling access to birth control is about control. full stop.

If you don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one.

 

 

 

 

A lot of it is about punishing women and girls for the audacity of having sex just for fun.

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38 minutes ago, Buddha said:

baloney.  if you think abortion is legalized murder its almost a duty to try and stop it.

It would have to be an acknowledged human being for it to be considered murder.

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29 minutes ago, Buddha said:

me too.

also, having kids changed my opinion too.

I balance that with the sincere belief that most women who get abortions don't want to do it but circumstances make them think that's the best option.... sometimes the options are both bad... and I will trust them. I think too many legislators and pundits think abortion rights are simply for sluts who want to have as much consequence free sex as possible...

And I bet at least 25% of anti abortion male legislators have paid for one for a mistress.

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and a ****ty day for MI... 891 cases... most in 2 months.

Kent County leading the way.

 

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11 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

Yeah that argument is just lazy IMO.

As far as most women having a negative experience....Lee just mentioned that was his feeling on it and since he seems to lean in the direction of letting the woman choose, is a stat nerd, and usually pretty level headed I just went with it for the sake of my conversation with him.

FTR: I think he is a 100% correct that most women who are in a situation to have to abort end up generally feeling bad about it.

Not true.  It's another one of those myths put out there that it's somehow this agonizing decision which is only meant to shame women.

I had an abortion and I didn't feel conflicted or remorseful or bad about it in any way.  It was a pro life decision.  Pro my life, pro my husband's life and pro my other children's lives (and I have an adopted child FWIW).  I was the last person I ever thought would want or need an abortion, but that's how life goes sometimes.  I was lucky to have the access, but so many other don't.  The pandemic has exposed what a farce the "Pro Life" movement is

 

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10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

A lot of it is about punishing women and girls for the audacity of having sex just for fun.

i believe in abortion restrictions and it has nothing to do with control over women.  it has to do with whether you think its killing another human being.

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13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It would have to be an acknowledged human being for it to be considered murder.

but the criminal law does recognize it as murder.  if i know a woman is pregnant and i kill her and the baby, i get charged for killing the unborn child too.

most state criminal statutes write an exception for abortion into the law to make it legal even though it is killing an unborn child.

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illinois statute:

Ill. Rev. Stat. ch. 720 § 5/9-1.2, § 5/9-2.1 and § 5/9-3.2 define intentional homicide of an unborn child, voluntary manslaughter of an unborn child, involuntary manslaughter and reckless homicide of an unborn child, respectively.  The laws define "unborn child" as any individual of the human species from fertilization until birth. The laws also specify that these provisions do not apply to acts which cause the death of an unborn child if those acts were committed during any abortion to which the pregnant woman has consented or to acts which were committed pursuant to usual and customary standards of medical practice during testing or treatmen

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14 minutes ago, Buddha said:

but the criminal law does recognize it as murder.  if i know a woman is pregnant and i kill her and the baby, i get charged for killing the unborn child too.

most state criminal statutes write an exception for abortion into the law to make it legal even though it is killing an unborn child.

I'm not too interested in what criminal law has to say about whether a fetus is a human being. Criminal law is the result of the political process to formulate it, which is why a murderer gets nailed for the extra murder on behalf of the fetus. It's an attempt borne of political considerations to make sure the murderer gets what the state believes is his maximum due. But I don't accept criminal law as being the arbiter of the humanity of the fetus, nor would I accept the religious point of view. I would be more wont to accept a determination based in science.

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8 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i believe in abortion restrictions and it has nothing to do with control over women.  it has to do with whether you think its killing another human being.

Not 100% of all people believe punishing women for having abortions is about punishing women for having sex. You don't, for example. But a lot of people do, which is really what I think the whole rape/incest exception is about.

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Just now, chasfh said:

I'm not too interested in what criminal law has to say about whether a fetus is a human being. Criminal law is the result of a political process to formulate it, which is why a murderer gets nailed for the extra murder on behalf of the fetus. It's an attempt to make sure the murderer gets what the state believes is his maximum due. But I don't accept criminal law as being the arbiter of the humanity of the fetus.

so when you say you it would have to be a human being to be "murder", you mean under your definition of murder and not the actual definition?

ok.  thats more of a philosophical argument i suppose.

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8 minutes ago, Kacie said:

Not true.  It's another one of those myths put out there that it's somehow this agonizing decision which is only meant to shame women.

I had an abortion and I didn't feel conflicted or remorseful or bad about it in any way.  It was a pro life decision.  Pro my life, pro my husband's life and pro my other children's lives (and I have an adopted child FWIW).  I was the last person I ever thought would want or need an abortion, but that's how life goes sometimes.  I was lucky to have the access, but so many other don't.  The pandemic has exposed what a farce the "Pro Life" movement is

 

It is not true for you, Kacie.  Unless you know what is in the heart of every woman to ever have an abortion your opinion on it has just about the same weight mine does because it is just an opinion.

You have personal experience and yours does not mean others feel the same.

Even assuming you went to some form of counseling and talked to 50 other women who had abortions, based on the number of abortions happening every day it is ludicrous to think that because you had no problem with it that others didn't.

Anytime I claim personal experience in a discussion on this board I am constantly reminded of the sample size.  Just because this is a sensitive topic does not mean it is any different.

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We had a pregnancy scare a few years back despite precautions.

My wife was prepared for an abortion (as was I) as we did not want to have a child at 45. Happily married, financially secure couple of 20 years who raised two children, yet we did not want to raise another, to say nothing of the additional health risks due to age.  As it turned out it wasn't necessary to have an abortion, but I doubt we are what comes to most people's mind as a couple looking for an abortion.

My point is everyone who has an abortion has their reason or reasons.  I'd suggest attempting to generalize much beyond that is not terribly instructive.

 

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