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six-hopper

The Derek Jeter thing

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One vote short of unanimity.  So I guess someone actually saw The Captain play defense.

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One time in the World Series, he made this great play.  So, he was as great defender.  

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I don't have a problem with Jeter not being the best defensive SS because he was a good enough hitter to be a great player overall. But it irks me that Visquel doesn't get anywhere near same props coming from the opposite direction.

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59 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I don't have a problem with Jeter not being the best defensive SS because he was a good enough hitter to be a great player overall. But it irks me that Visquel doesn't get anywhere near same props coming from the opposite direction.

Not only wasn't Jeter the best, he was statistically the worst.  

Vizquel did quite well in the HoF voting (52.6%).  

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51 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Not only wasn't Jeter the best, he was statistically the worst.  

 

Jeter is a HOF player. For sure. I was surprised to learn that he was the first Yankee in history to get 3000 hits.

Jeter was not a good SS despite people's memories of a couple of plays that were shown ad nauseum on ESPN.

When A-Rod went to the Yankees, Jeter should have moved to third because A-Rod was clearly a better defensive SS. I think that was the beginning of the rift in their relationship because A-Rod knew it but would look petty expressing it.

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2 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

When A-Rod went to the Yankees, Jeter should have moved to third because A-Rod was clearly a better defensive SS. I think that was the beginning of the rift in their relationship because A-Rod knew it but would look petty expressing it.

It was  true at the time, but OTOH, ARod is such a big guy I think the odds are he would have ended up much worse than Jeter pretty rapidly.

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I always have said that Jeter was both overrated and underrated.  Overrated because I don't see him as one of the Yankee elite guys like Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig, etc.  He's a HOF player.  But he's not Ripken or Wagner.  He's Robin Yount.   But I also think it's important to note his "clutch", his durability, and the way he carried himself.  I know "clutch" isn't necessarily a skill.  I get that.  But he had his big moments.  When I heard at the ASG in Yankee Stadium that he took it upon himself to act as host for the other players.  He gave them tours, engaged with them, and stayed until the last player left.  Little things like that made me like him.   I think his detractors  often go overboard in knocking him down.  I like to mock the deity version of Jeter, "pasta diving Jeter", etc. but I also think he's a very worthy HOFer.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I always have said that Jeter was both overrated and underrated.  Overrated because I don't see him as one of the Yankee elite guys like Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig, etc.  He's a HOF player.  But he's not Ripken or Wagner.  He's Robin Yount.   But I also think it's important to note his "clutch", his durability, and the way he carried himself.  I know "clutch" isn't necessarily a skill.

Jeter had a quick bat. He didn't strike out a lot, didn't hit the long ball all that much but did hit the ball hard enough to have a lifetime BaBIP of 350, so he was in general a tough out at all times. If you think about it, being a tough out is pretty much what makes you appear clutch.

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There is no question he is a worthy Hall of Famer but they way he gets deified is ridiculous.  That is why he gets knocked down so much.  He was a very good hitting shortstop with a lot of durability and a very strong post season resume.  He also was a poor fielder relative to other shortstops and stayed at the position years too long.  You can't analyze Jeter's great career accurately if you ignore the fielding.  It's not a minor detail.  

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19 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

 He also was a poor fielder relative to other shortstops and stayed at the position years too long.  You can't analyze Jeter's great career accurately if you ignore the fielding.  It's not a minor detail.  

Especially if you consider his peers at the position at the time.

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On 1/23/2020 at 12:50 PM, Oblong said:

I always have said that Jeter was both overrated and underrated.  Overrated because I don't see him as one of the Yankee elite guys like Mantle, Ruth, Gehrig, etc.  He's a HOF player.  But he's not Ripken or Wagner.  He's Robin Yount.   But I also think it's important to note his "clutch", his durability, and the way he carried himself.  I know "clutch" isn't necessarily a skill.  I get that.  But he had his big moments.  When I heard at the ASG in Yankee Stadium that he took it upon himself to act as host for the other players.  He gave them tours, engaged with them, and stayed until the last player left.  Little things like that made me like him.   I think his detractors  often go overboard in knocking him down.  I like to mock the deity version of Jeter, "pasta diving Jeter", etc. but I also think he's a very worthy HOFer.

I get the feeling that if Jeter played for anyone but the Yankees and had the same career that he's be a much more liked guy by most of the baseball world.  I think a lot of the Jeter "hate" is because he's a Yankee and many fans are reluctant to give props to any Yankee player.

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I only agree insofar as he received the media attention that he did in no small part to playing with the Yankees and playing in 83 post-seasons.

I don't have a good handle on how much was due to being a Yankee v. being in the post-season damn near every season, though.

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I actually did like Jeter for much of his career regardless of his team.  I liked Bernie Williams too.  It is the ridiculous glorification of Jeter's career by the media which turned me off.  I would also guess that the frequent post-season appearances had more to do with the glorification than playing for the Yankees.  

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On 1/23/2020 at 10:04 AM, tiger337 said:

Not only wasn't Jeter the best, he was statistically the worst.  

Vizquel did quite well in the HoF voting (52.6%).  

Bill James did a piece comparing Jeter's awful defense (lots of plays made in flashy fashion -- often unnecessarily -- with lousy fundamentals and worse overall results) with Adam Everett's (nothing for the highlight reels, just making all the plays in textbook fashion).

It was probably combined with one of his rants about the idiocy of the Gold Glove awards.  (Jeter got five of them.)

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