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Clark has the DV on his record and must have been a non-starter in Detroit.

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On 12/23/2019 at 4:50 PM, Jason_R said:

I have a hard time believing that if Young was available when the Lions pick, they would not pick him. Just because they did not pick Montez Sweat. 

Depends on whether Quinn and Patricia think that he would make a successful transition to strong safety. 

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On 12/23/2019 at 4:50 PM, Jason_R said:

I have a hard time believing that if Young was available when the Lions pick, they would not pick him. Just because they did not pick Montez Sweat. 

They passed on Ed Oliver, Montez Sweat, and Brian Burns to pick a Tight End prospect with average athleticism, blocking and route running ability. I also believe they would have passed on Josh Allen for Hockenson had they been given the choice. Quinn has drafted 2 DE's in the 4 drafts he has operated, Austin Bryant and Jeremiah Leadbetter.. Neither were picked before 4th round. The DE they did go make a splash for in free agency was not a true, pure set the edge/rush the QB type of player either. Rather, as Budda has pointed out he is someone they can move along the line and use in a variety of different looks. Patrica and Quinn seem to value that type of versatility foremost on the line.

Patrica's defensive scheme isn't a traditional scheme, where getting pressure on the QB, getting sacks, collapsing the pocket, etc. is valued. Rather, versatility is crucial as mentioned above. It's about containment, dropping 7-8 guys into coverage, shutting down routes and throwing lanes, taking away the big play ability, bend but don't break. If they don't believe that Young will be a multi-tool, versatile player that they can move along the line and they see him as a pure edge rusher, I do believe there is a high probability they pass on him for someone like an Isiah Simmons or Andrew Thomas.

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Very first scouting report I pulled up on Hockenson said he was a freakish athlete and sharp route runner and compared him to Travis Kelce. He was also regarded as one of the better blocking TEs. Most had him as a top 10 pick and I recall there being a lot of talk of Jacksonville taking him 7th. Lets not have some revisionist history and say he is an average prospect. 

I remember when Tater was so convinced Martha wasn't going outside the organization to hire a GM because she hired Rod Wood that he was going to I believe throw his couch through Ford Field since Sheldon White was going to get the job. There hasn't been a pass rusher of Young's caliber available when the Lions drafted. Quinn also hasn't drafted a WR higher than a late 3rd. That doesn't mean he doesn't value the position. 

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2 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They passed on Ed Oliver, Montez Sweat, and Brian Burns to pick a Tight End prospect with average athleticism, blocking and route running ability. I also believe they would have passed on Josh Allen for Hockenson had they been given the choice. Quinn has drafted 2 DE's in the 4 drafts he has operated, Austin Bryant and Jeremiah Leadbetter.. Neither were picked before 4th round. The DE they did go make a splash for in free agency was not a true, pure set the edge/rush the QB type of player either. Rather, as Budda has pointed out he is someone they can move along the line and use in a variety of different looks. Patrica and Quinn seem to value that type of versatility foremost on the line.

Patrica's defensive scheme isn't a traditional scheme, where getting pressure on the QB, getting sacks, collapsing the pocket, etc. is valued. Rather, versatility is crucial as mentioned above. It's about containment, dropping 7-8 guys into coverage, shutting down routes and throwing lanes, taking away the big play ability, bend but don't break. If they don't believe that Young will be a multi-tool, versatile player that they can move along the line and they see him as a pure edge rusher, I do believe there is a high probability they pass on him for someone like an Isiah Simmons or Andrew Thomas.

The team is not struggling because it passed on Ed Oliver, Montez Sweat, or Brian Burns. 

From a draft standpoint, the team is struggling because Jarrad Davis was drafted for another scheme (along with Jalen Reeves-Maybin), Teez Tabor was a ridiculous miss, Kerryon Johnson is as injury prone in the pros as he was in college, they had brutal injury luck all around (including Hockenson who will end up missing a quarter of the season due to injury). 

More importantly, from a coaching standpoint, the players (in the secondary at least) still do not buy into Patricia's scheme, and the results have been obvious in the team's lack of ability to hold late leads.

Quinn, and the franchise, would have been better served if he had not been permitted to run a pretend coaching search which resulted in the hiring of his pre-selected candidate and buddy. That is the number one reason why the team is struggling. Everything else pales in comparison. 

 

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Are the Lions struggling because they passed up on Oliver, Burns, Sweat, or even Devin Bush? No. Would all four of those players have likely contributed more than TJ Hockenson did this season? Yes.

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3 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Very first scouting report I pulled up on Hockenson said he was a freakish athlete and sharp route runner and compared him to Travis Kelce. He was also regarded as one of the better blocking TEs. Most had him as a top 10 pick and I recall there being a lot of talk of Jacksonville taking him 7th. Lets not have some revisionist history and say he is an average prospect. 

I remember when Tater was so convinced Martha wasn't going outside the organization to hire a GM because she hired Rod Wood that he was going to I believe throw his couch through Ford Field since Sheldon White was going to get the job. There hasn't been a pass rusher of Young's caliber available when the Lions drafted. Quinn also hasn't drafted a WR higher than a late 3rd. That doesn't mean he doesn't value the position. 

In-terms of Hockenson, after having ready this writers detailed scouting report on him, that's when I started incorporating the word average into the conversation.

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5988f684fda8db00017f4dee/5c8aa02c84944a75d0423498_CFM19_TE_Hockenson_TJ.pdf

What evidence have you seen that showcases they value a pure edge rusher or getting after the QB in general? Signing Flowers is not evidence in my mind because he is a versatile, multi-tooled guy and not an elite edge rusher. He's a guy I very much wanted, but has not turned into an elite pass rusher by any means. They value by their own admission and the scheme they have implemented containment, coverage, dropping back 6-7-8 into coverage, rushing only 3. 

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12 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

In-terms of Hockenson, after having ready this writers detailed scouting report on him, that's when I started incorporating the word average into the conversation.

https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5988f684fda8db00017f4dee/5c8aa02c84944a75d0423498_CFM19_TE_Hockenson_TJ.pdf

What evidence have you seen that showcases they value a pure edge rusher or getting after the QB in general? Signing Flowers is not evidence in my mind because he is a versatile, multi-tooled guy and not an elite edge rusher. He's a guy I very much wanted, but has not turned into an elite pass rusher by any means. They value by their own admission and the scheme they have implemented containment, coverage, dropping back 6-7-8 into coverage, rushing only 3. 

They didn't just spend $90 million for an edge setter or franchise Ansah to be an edge setter. They also inquired on Khalil Mack but didn't have the trade package Chicago did. There's other positions they haven't spent high picks on either. They also have only drafted top 10 once. 

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28 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Are the Lions struggling because they passed up on Oliver, Burns, Sweat, or even Devin Bush? No. Would all four of those players have likely contributed more than TJ Hockenson did this season? Yes.

TEs take longer to develop. Hockenson's rookie season rates similarly to guys like Gronkowski and Witten. 

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I really hope you're right and that if Chase Young is there when they are picking they take him. Doug Karsch was saying leading up to last years draft and shortly there after that he was hearing Hockenson was quite likely to be the pick even if Josh Allen had been on the board. So I have my reservations for that and a number of other reasons in doubting they take Young.

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13 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I really hope you're right and that if Chase Young is there when they are picking they take him. Doug Karsch was saying leading up to last years draft and shortly there after that he was hearing Hockenson was quite likely to be the pick even if Josh Allen had been on the board. So I have my reservations for that and a number of other reasons in doubting they take Young.

You can’t believe a word of what gets reported around draft day. 

But if it fits your preconceived notions, nobody can stop you. 

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2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

The team is not struggling because it passed on Ed Oliver, Montez Sweat, or Brian Burns. 

From a draft standpoint, the team is struggling because Jarrad Davis was drafted for another scheme (along with Jalen Reeves-Maybin), Teez Tabor was a ridiculous miss, Kerryon Johnson is as injury prone in the pros as he was in college, they had brutal injury luck all around (including Hockenson who will end up missing a quarter of the season due to injury). 

More importantly, from a coaching standpoint, the players (in the secondary at least) still do not buy into Patricia's scheme, and the results have been obvious in the team's lack of ability to hold late leads.

Quinn, and the franchise, would have been better served if he had not been permitted to run a pretend coaching search which resulted in the hiring of his pre-selected candidate and buddy. That is the number one reason why the team is struggling. Everything else pales in comparison. 

 

honestly, one of his biggest mistakes was not firing caldwell as soon as he got there.  if he really felt that the management team in place was not going the direction he wanted, he shouldnt have wasted his time supposedly drafting for the coaching staff he had at the time.  rather, he should have brought in the staff he wanted immediately.

now he's stuck with davis and players he supposedly only drafted because they fit austin's scheme.

although i imagine a better coaching staff could make it fit better.  see van noy, kyle.

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hockenson was rated pretty highly by most of the people i saw on line.  my question was more about whether tight end is a position that you need to draft that highly, is it as impactful a position?

lets give hockenson a little more than just one year before calling him a bust.

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8 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

They passed on Ed Oliver, Montez Sweat, and Brian Burns to pick a Tight End prospect with average athleticism, blocking and route running ability. I also believe they would have passed on Josh Allen for Hockenson had they been given the choice. Quinn has drafted 2 DE's in the 4 drafts he has operated, Austin Bryant and Jeremiah Leadbetter.. Neither were picked before 4th round. The DE they did go make a splash for in free agency was not a true, pure set the edge/rush the QB type of player either. Rather, as Budda has pointed out he is someone they can move along the line and use in a variety of different looks. Patrica and Quinn seem to value that type of versatility foremost on the line.

Patrica's defensive scheme isn't a traditional scheme, where getting pressure on the QB, getting sacks, collapsing the pocket, etc. is valued. Rather, versatility is crucial as mentioned above. It's about containment, dropping 7-8 guys into coverage, shutting down routes and throwing lanes, taking away the big play ability, bend but don't break. If they don't believe that Young will be a multi-tool, versatile player that they can move along the line and they see him as a pure edge rusher, I do believe there is a high probability they pass on him for someone like an Isiah Simmons or Andrew Thomas.

I agree. 
What if this team had had Ed Oliver and his.. 5 sacks. Or Montez sweat and his... 5 sacks. Or Brian Burns? and his... 6.5 sacks. 

This could be a ... 3.5 team without Stafford. Oh. ****, that's what they are? Dang. 

 

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This offense isn't desperate for another pass catching weapon. This defense is desperate for someone with the ability to get after the QB and create pressure. If Stafford doesn't get hurt this is probably a 6-10 or 7-9 football team largely because their defense is terrible. Part of being terrible on defense is that they can't get any pressure on the QB and are giving guys 3-4-5-6 seconds to run through their progression, find the 2nd or 3rd read, and allow plays to develop. This team would likely not be struggling because of lack of receiving threats or production out of the TE position. It was universally obvious last season that this team needed a pass rusher and needed to put more pressure on the QB and take away time for plays to develop. Sure, they needed a TE as well, but Hockenson didn't give anything that Jesse James could not have himself.

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17 hours ago, Buddha said:

honestly, one of his biggest mistakes was not firing caldwell as soon as he got there.  if he really felt that the management team in place was not going the direction he wanted, he shouldnt have wasted his time supposedly drafting for the coaching staff he had at the time.  rather, he should have brought in the staff he wanted immediately.

now he's stuck with davis and players he supposedly only drafted because they fit austin's scheme.

although i imagine a better coaching staff could make it fit better.  see van noy, kyle.

I agree. At the time I thought he was kicking the can, and buying himself an excuse for a potential regime change that would earn him a contract extension. Turns out he was. 

It was the first of many decisions that fall under Quinn’s MO of playing it (too) close to the vest. 

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