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1 hour ago, Hongbit said:

The Bears are almost the same pitiful franchise except they’ve had 2 more great seasons in the last 50 years than the Lions.  

thats not true.  the bears were a dominant team in the 80s.  the lions havent been a dominant team in our lifetimes.

the bears in the mid 2000s had some of the best defenses in the league and won division titles with them.

the lions havent won a division title in 30 years.

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

i dont think the bears are the franchise the lions should aspire to be.  i think the bears suck.

and having said all that, theyre better than the lions!  

The Lions are better with a healthy Stafford. We criticize Quinn because of Flowers, who really isn't underperforming, so it's fair to criticize the Bears who have a lot more invested in Mack who is underperforming even more but hey it was a bold move. The Bears would have been better off using the money they gave to Mack and signed Za'Darius Smith and another player plus draft two hopefully potential starters. They would have been better off even with Trubisky. 

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34 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Lions are better with a healthy Stafford. 

This is not at all obvious. They lost to the Bears twice last year with a healthy Stafford. 

You keep hammering on my comment that at least Ryan Pace was bold. Let's talk about Quinn. His strategy is to play it close to the vest. To choose players with good "football character," with high floors, even if that means low ceilings. To pay for players like Flowers.

So let's talk about how well Flowers is performing as compared to Mack. When Flowers is performing at his ceiling (he is rounding into form now), he is comparable to Mack performing at his floor.

But Mack performing at his ceiling last season almost singlehandedly got the Bears to the playoffs. Flowers at his ceiling is the best player on a defense shaping up to be the league's worst.

Quinn's strategy, ultimately, is not to make a mistake. He will deal at the margins (exchanging expensive veterans for middling draft picks), but he has yet to do anything, well, bold. 

If your strategy is to stay put on draft day, to let the draft come to you, and not to miss on any draft pick, well, you had better not miss on any draft pick. That hasn't happened. 

So he let Taylor Decker come to him in his first draft. He checked the boxes, he filled a need. But he's just meh. You don't win with meh. Same with Davis. Jury is out on Ragnow and Hock. But if these are the players you're getting with your first round picks, you'd probably be better off having traded those picks for a few more picks later in the draft.

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6 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

This is not at all obvious. They lost to the Bears twice last year with a healthy Stafford. 

You keep hammering on my comment that at least Ryan Pace was bold. Let's talk about Quinn. His strategy is to play it close to the vest. To choose players with good "football character," with high floors, even if that means low ceilings. To pay for players like Flowers.

So let's talk about how well Flowers is performing as compared to Mack. When Flowers is performing at his ceiling (he is rounding into form now), he is comparable to Mack performing at his floor.

But Mack performing at his ceiling last season almost singlehandedly got the Bears to the playoffs. Flowers at his ceiling is the best player on a defense shaping up to be the league's worst.

Quinn's strategy, ultimately, is not to make a mistake. He will deal at the margins (exchanging expensive veterans for middling draft picks), but he has yet to do anything, well, bold. 

If your strategy is to stay put on draft day, to let the draft come to you, and not to miss on any draft pick, well, you had better not miss on any draft pick. That hasn't happened. 

So he let Taylor Decker come to him in his first draft. He checked the boxes, he filled a need. But he's just meh. You don't win with meh. Same with Davis. Jury is out on Ragnow and Hock. But if these are the players you're getting with your first round picks, you'd probably be better off having traded those picks for a few more picks later in the draft.

But Mack isn't performing at his ceiling and cost $50 million more than Flowers and the Bears don't have any 1st round picks. He's barely better than Flowers and cost a lot more to obtain. They made the playoffs last year and lost the only playoff game they played. Big ******* deal. The complaint now would be that Quinn took too many gambles or too big of a risk. Was it really worth two first round draft picks and $140 million? They aren't going to make the playoffs most likely this year and may not next year unless Trubisky learns how to QB. People want bold until it backfires. 

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i would rather have had a 12-4 season with khalil mack and not had two first round picks (but picking up an extra second), then have those first round picks and finished 6-10 and now be 3-6-1.

the new lions motto: yeah you may have won the division but we have our first round pick!  suckers!

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What energy is it worth to debate whether the Lions FO is strategically more or less clever than another FO managing another under 500 team? Whether Quinn is aggressive. or whether he 'lets the draft come to him' or whether he likes high floor vs high ceiling players are all pretty academic questions when the fact is that 4 yr into his regime the Lions are still woefully short of talent. 

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i like it when people argue the pro lions position.  gives us something to talk about.

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2 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i like it when people argue the pro lions position.  gives us something to talk about.

I'm not even arguing a pro Lions position. I'm just baffled anyone is arguing a pro Bears position. The team passed on two all-pro QBs and gave up multiple 1st round picks and $140 million for an underperforming pass rusher, but hey, they got that 12 win season where they lost the only playoff game they played. 

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Prior to last season, the Bears were 19-45 and the Lions 36-28. The Bears had 0 playoff appearances and the Lions 2. The Lions were 7-1 against the Bears during that stretch, but big ******* deal they went 12-4 and made the playoff once and lost but are now sub-500 like they were the previous 4 seasons. Only this time they are locked into an underachieving pass rusher and no 1st round picks. 

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18 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm not even arguing a pro Lions position. I'm just baffled anyone is arguing a pro Bears position. The team passed on two all-pro QBs and gave up multiple 1st round picks and $140 million for an underperforming pass rusher, but hey, they got that 12 win season where they lost the only playoff game they played. 

its interesting how you see yourself and what youre arguing.  you ALWAYS argue the pro lions position.  you never disagree with someone who is arguing the lions are awesome, you only disagree when we say the lions have made a mistake.  you may not agree that the lions are awesome, but you never argue with anyone making that point.

that said, again, nobody is saying the bears are awesome.  the bears suck.  but they also just went 12-4 and won the division, which the lions havent done since 1991.  you pooh pooh that like its nothing.  i disagree.  i would gladly sacrifice two first round picks for 12-4 and a division title rather than have the hope of getting another solid but unspectacular guard from the sec at pick 12.

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

its interesting how you see yourself and what youre arguing.  you ALWAYS argue the pro lions position.  you never disagree with someone who is arguing the lions are awesome, you only disagree when we say the lions have made a mistake.  you may not agree that the lions are awesome, but you never argue with anyone making that point.

that said, again, nobody is saying the bears are awesome.  the bears suck.  but they also just went 12-4 and won the division, which the lions havent done since 1991.  you pooh pooh that like its nothing.  i disagree.  i would gladly sacrifice two first round picks for 12-4 and a division title rather than have the hope of getting another solid but unspectacular guard from the sec at pick 12.

I doubt you would. What difference does it make if the Lions win 12 games and lose a playoff game to an inferior team at home against their backup QB than winning 11 games and losing a close playoff game on the road to an equal or better team? Then when the team reverts to being sub 500 and missing the playoffs like they did many seasons prior, you would be whining about Quinn trading all those picks and spending $140 million for an underachieving pass rusher. I'm also not convinced Mack had as big of an impact. The Bears defense was good without him. He didn't just elevate a last place defense into an elite defense. The Bears defense was opportunistic and Trubisky did enough not to lose. 

Who actually has argued the Lions are awesome? 

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Nobody is arguing pro-Bears, dude. Saying the hot-and-cold Bears have a better roster than the Lions, outside of QB, is just speaking the truth.

The only reason the Lions have had a better than the Bears over recent years is that the Lions finished 0-16 in a year where Matt Stafford was in the draft. Even the Lions could not have blown it.

Though Quinn inherited a QB with, arguably, HOF talent, the rest of the team he has built reflects his personality — good enough to make the team but not good enough to make it great. 

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34 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I doubt you would. What difference does it make if the Lions win 12 games and lose a playoff game to an inferior team at home against their backup QB than winning 11 games and losing a close playoff game on the road to an equal or better team? Then when the team reverts to being sub 500 and missing the playoffs like they did many seasons prior, you would be whining about Quinn trading all those picks and spending $140 million for an underachieving pass rusher. I'm also not convinced Mack had as big of an impact. The Bears defense was good without him. He didn't just elevate a last place defense into an elite defense. The Bears defense was opportunistic and Trubisky did enough not to lose. 

Who actually has argued the Lions are awesome? 

mack had a huge impact on the bears last year.  you say that as 1) someone who didnt watch the bears; and 2) someone who laughed at the idea that the bears were going to be better than the lions last year.  remember?

how old are you?  do you remember the last time the lions won 12 games and the division?

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10 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Nobody is arguing pro-Bears, dude. Saying the hot-and-cold Bears have a better roster than the Lions, outside of QB, is just speaking the truth.

The only reason the Lions have had a better than the Bears over recent years is that the Lions finished 0-16 in a year where Matt Stafford was in the draft. Even the Lions could not have blown it.

Though Quinn inherited a QB with, arguably, HOF talent, the rest of the team he has built reflects his personality — good enough to make the team but not good enough to make it great. 

I would say the only the Bears have on the Lions is defense. Maybe top to bottom they are better than the Lions, but the one place the Lions have the advantage is a pretty huge advantage and the most important position on the field. Sorry, but I would take the team with Stafford and try to build a defense than to have the defense and try to find a Stafford. I would also argue the Lions offense as a whole is better. Chicago can't run it either. This goes back to this BS of needing to make a bold move. The bold move for Chicago delivered them one good season but didn't set them up for sustained success. How many times has Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England, Seattle, Green Bay, Minnesota traded multiple firsts for a single player? The only team that comes to mind is Kansas City trading multiple picks for Mahomes and I believe Philadelphia traded multiple firsts for Wentz but those were QBs and not pass rushers.

10 hours ago, Buddha said:

mack had a huge impact on the bears last year.  you say that as 1) someone who didnt watch the bears; and 2) someone who laughed at the idea that the bears were going to be better than the lions last year.  remember?

how old are you?  do you remember the last time the lions won 12 games and the division?

I thought the Bears were going to be around 8-8. Their defense created an unsustainable amount of turnovers and points. Now that reality has set in, as Denny Green once set about the Chicago Bears, "They are who we thought they were." 

The last time the Lions won 12 games and a division, they at least won their home playoff game. It's just so funny you want to live in the past on one good season that really ended in disappointment. I care more about the hear and now and the Bears benched their starting QB and there stud pass rusher who they invested a lot in is underperforming.

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Speaking of the Lions not blowing the Stafford pick, I do not agree with that. I seem to recall a lot of people wanting to trade that pick for Cutler. In fact, didn't the Lions have a deal in place for Cutler? But wait, the bold Chicago Bears came around and offered multiple picks. They won one playoff game so it makes all worthwhile. Also, I don't think it was a consensus Stafford was the top pick. Sanchez got some attention and everyone liked that LB whose name escapes me.  

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

Speaking of the Lions not blowing the Stafford pick, I do not agree with that. I seem to recall a lot of people wanting to trade that pick for Cutler. In fact, didn't the Lions have a deal in place for Cutler? But wait, the bold Chicago Bears came around and offered multiple picks. They won one playoff game so it makes all worthwhile. Also, I don't think it was a consensus Stafford was the top pick. Sanchez got some attention and everyone liked that LB whose name escapes me.  

I seem to recall a group of Lions fans that wanted Aaron Curry over Stafford because Sam Bradford was the better QB prospect so the next year would have been the better year to take a QB so might as well get the franchise LB then get the true franchise QB the next season. Yikes

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57 minutes ago, NYLion said:

I seem to recall a group of Lions fans that wanted Aaron Curry over Stafford because Sam Bradford was the better QB prospect so the next year would have been the better year to take a QB so might as well get the franchise LB then get the true franchise QB the next season. Yikes

I wanted Curry over Stafford. I had the "a great defense wins championships in the NFL" mindset and had myself convinced that we just passed on Ray Lewis by not drafting him. That said, I wasn't dead set against Stafford by any means.

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I was on the Cutler bandwagon. He was a 25 year old QB coming off a Pro Bowl season and looked like his career was on an upward trajectory. For whatever reason, he regressed in Chicago and was never the same QB he was in Denver. 

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Yeah, I wanted the Lions to trade for Cutler as well. I remember wanting the Lions to trade for Cutler, take Curry at #1 and then one of Robert Ayers/Rey Maualuga/Peria Jerry/Vontae Davis/Michael Oher/Alex Mack at #20. Obviously some of those picks at #20 I was dead wrong about, especially Jerry and Oher.

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I forget what the agreed trade was, I know Cassel went to Denver, but I forget what Detroit gave up? I would have been ecstatic at the time if they would have been able to get Cutler and keep the #1 and #20 picks. I liked Stafford and thought his upside was Brett Favre, but I also thought Cutler's upside was Brett Favre and he was the "proven" QB at the time.

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Iirc the Broncos actually didn't want the number 1 pick because of the cost that came with it.   

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Why am I not surprised by the people who would have picked Aaron Curry or Mark Sanchez or traded for Jay Cutler over Stafford?

Anyway, for the last time, I did not suggest that Bob Quinn should make a “bold move” just to make a move. 

I said that he is playing it too safe in his drafts and his record shows it. 

Ryan Pace made a few bold moves. One paid off and his team made a playoff run. Another did not.

If you think you’re working for a franchise where missing the playoffs for three or four years will probably get you fired, you better do everything you can to get to the playoffs. If you think you’ll get as long as Bill Belichick has gotten at NE, well, go ahead and arbitrage your aging and expensive vets for mid-round draft picks. 

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Aaron Curry was being rated as the consensus top prospect by many. Even nfl.com was saying so at the time. His combine numbers were off the charts and people were making Ray Lewis and Patrick Willis comparisons from day one. A whole universe of people got that one wrong.

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