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Cowboys at Lions 11/17

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4 hours ago, Buddha said:

thats a little much.

lets give him at least more than one year before we kill the pick.  but he does have some of the characteristics of a bob quinn pick: safe, not great at anything but not horrible, low ceiling high floor, big school.

and i would say that all of his first round picks have been average at best, and bad (jarrad davis).

Yeah, the scouting report is overly harsh in that he proclaimed Hockenson a UDFA-worthy talent. I don't think he's that bad of a player by any means, but I certainly thought then and feel strongly now, that picking him at #8 is/was a big mistake. What will really set me off as a fan is if one or more of the guys I wanted there (Burns, Bush, Oliver, Sweat) becomes a pro bowl-level player and we're stuck with a sub-average Tight End. The jury is still out on Hock plus Burns/Oliver/Sweat but Devin Bush looks like a stud right now.

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Yeah, the scouting report is overly harsh in that he proclaimed Hockenson a UDFA-worthy talent. I don't think he's that bad of a player by any means, but I certainly thought then and feel strongly now, that picking him at #8 is/was a big mistake. What will really set me off as a fan is if one or more of the guys I wanted there (Burns, Bush, Oliver, Sweat) becomes a pro bowl-level player and we're stuck with a sub-average Tight End. The jury is still out on Hock plus Burns/Oliver/Sweat but Devin Bush looks like a stud right now.

i'm sure they'll say they didnt draft bush because of scheme because they want a big middle linebacker to stop the run, ergo tavai.

just like the excuse that davis hasnt worked out because he was drafted for another scheme.

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I guess Teez was for a different scheme too. So were Taylor Decker, A'Shawn Robinson, Miles Killibrew, Michael Roberts, and that Long Snapper guy.

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14 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I guess Teez was for a different scheme too. So were Taylor Decker, A'Shawn Robinson, Miles Killibrew, Michael Roberts, and that Long Snapper guy.

i just dont buy his argument on scheme.  look at other teams, look at the packers.  they got a new gm and new coach and are much better after getting a couple new defensive players (pass rushers....who knew????) but still have the rest of their players from the old team.

look at the bears.  they went from john fox running up the middle on every play to matt nagy running tarik cohen and tight ends everywhere.  they didnt complain they didnt have players to fit the scheme.

its an excuse to cover up for poor performance.  they spent big money on a slot corner and a defensive end.  they extended a linebacker almost universally recognized as the worst in the league.  they spent big money on mike daniels.  i know theyve had a few injuries, but so has every team.  instead of seeing any improvement theyve gone from being an ok defense in patricia's first year to having the worst defense in the league.

quinn has to bear responsibility for that.  and even if you want to blame the "rush 3 and never get pressure" scheme, its quinn who put that scheme's creator into place!

i have no doubt they will remain and if stafford is healthy, they can luck themselves into another 9 win season just on his arm alone, just like caldwell's last year.  but theyre not any better as a team.  this team peaked in 2014 and has been on a pretty steady descent since then.  quinn has done nothing to arrest that decline.

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On the complaints about Patricia's three-man rush, let's not forget he had a lot of success with it late last season and early this season. It's one of the reasons they did so well containing Mahomes.

But for the last few weeks, the secondary has looked terrible, even before they traded Diggs, and even more so since then. And Slay has been complaining about the pieces not being in the right places. 

Maybe it is as simple as Walker being injured and depth at safety being shot after the Diggs trade (whoops, Bob Quinn) but maybe the secondary is not buying into the system.

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21 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

On the complaints about Patricia's three-man rush, let's not forget he had a lot of success with it late last season and early this season. It's one of the reasons they did so well containing Mahomes.

But for the last few weeks, the secondary has looked terrible, even before they traded Diggs, and even more so since then. And Slay has been complaining about the pieces not being in the right places. 

Maybe it is as simple as Walker being injured and depth at safety being shot after the Diggs trade (whoops, Bob Quinn) but maybe the secondary is not buying into the system.

The three man rush is just the inverse of the blitz, and like the blitz, its effectiveness is inversely proportional to it becoming predictable.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

The three man rush is just the inverse of the blitz, and like the blitz, its effectiveness is inversely proportional to it becoming predictable.

Predictability has little, if anything, to do with it. 

The eight guys they have remaining on the roster to drop back in coverage don’t seem to know who they are supposed to cover. 

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i get the point of the three man rush, but i think the best scenario is you dont need to rush three and cover for 8 seconds because you have a defensive end or tackle who can get to the qb almost immediately.  like aaron donald or khalil mack.

but we have eschewed that type of player in favor of giving massive money to an end who can better defend the run, stays in his assignments, and can eventually get to the qb but just not in an instance.

again, high floor low ceiling, like every other player quinn seems to bring in.  and you see where it has gotten us.

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8 hours ago, Buddha said:

i get the point of the three man rush, but i think the best scenario is you dont need to rush three and cover for 8 seconds because you have a defensive end or tackle who can get to the qb almost immediately.  like aaron donald or khalil mack.

but we have eschewed that type of player in favor of giving massive money to an end who can better defend the run, stays in his assignments, and can eventually get to the qb but just not in an instance.

again, high floor low ceiling, like every other player quinn seems to bring in.  and you see where it has gotten us.

Also, who is the smartest guy in the room: the one who paid $90 million for the DE who fits that description, or the one who had him on his rookie contract, let him walk, and still has the top defense in the league?

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Flowers had strung together 3 pretty strong games in a row before getting concussed last game.  

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10 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Predictability has little, if anything, to do with it. 

Predictability is always a factor for offenses and defenses. That doesn't mean incompetence is not also!

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26 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Predictability is always a factor for offenses and defenses. That doesn't mean incompetence is not also!

If a play caller or QB predicts a blitz, yes, they can look for a hot route to take advantage of it. 

But if you’re in an obvious passing situation, and the defense decides to drop eight, what are you scheme? Maybe the QB watches for a chance to take off, but I don’t know what else you’re going to do. 

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1 hour ago, Jason_R said:

If a play caller or QB predicts a blitz, yes, they can look for a hot route to take advantage of it. 

But if you’re in an obvious passing situation, and the defense decides to drop eight, what are you scheme? Maybe the QB watches for a chance to take off, but I don’t know what else you’re going to do. 

If you know you are going to have more time you can scheme more complex routes,  you can make sure your receivers are always drilled to reroute, if you are coming out of a set with a back you know you won't have to hold what he does for blocking help. The lions have proved that even with 8 guys you can't cover for ever as long as receivers don't give up -  so that focus becomes part of an emphasis you don't bother with against a team that isn't going to give you time.

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

If you know you are going to have more time you can scheme more complex routes,  you can make sure your receivers are always drilled to reroute, if you are coming out of a set with a back you know you won't have to hold what he does for blocking help. The lions have proved that even with 8 guys you can't cover for ever as long as receivers don't give up -  so that focus becomes part of an emphasis you don't bother with against a team that isn't going to give you time.

Maybe. I just think that with their safety depth challenged, and probably some dissension between players and coaching, they are dropping eight who still don’t know who they are supposed to cover. 

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What teams have done is absolutely abuse the Lions in the middle of the field.   It’s been a constant that whenever a team needs a play it’s usually a crossing pattern or a seam pattern and they haven’t been able to stop it all year. 

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22 hours ago, Jason_R said:

If a play caller or QB predicts a blitz, yes, they can look for a hot route to take advantage of it. 

But if you’re in an obvious passing situation, and the defense decides to drop eight, what are you scheme? Maybe the QB watches for a chance to take off, but I don’t know what else you’re going to do. 

The "scheme" is to have the quarterback wait until someone gets wide open, because he will usually have all the time in the world.  

Rushing only three is almost always a terrible move, because it generally amounts to playing defense with only eight people, with the three "rushers" not getting into the same Zip Code  as the quarterback.

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I know your model is that if it didn’t work, it was wrong, but dropping eight was actually somewhat successful in limiting Patrick Mahomes earlier in the season. 

If you are going to drop eight, though, you need a lot of depth in your secondary, and you probably shouldn’t be doing it after you traded one of your starting safeties and the other got injured. 

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