Jump to content

RedRamage

Astro's stealing signs?

Recommended Posts


8 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think it will pass in time.  I don't see people making a deal out of this in 2025.

They won't. They will be making a deal out of the Tigers 3 peat in 2023, 2024, and 2025.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, RedRamage said:

My understanding was that MLB gave some level of immunity to the players to get testimony though... am I wrong on that?

Well, unless they got both immunity from punishment and an agreement that their testimony would be kept confidential and anonymous (and the latter seems unlikely to me, because it would require the reports to be issued with only unsourced witness evidence included), I would expect to have heard something about particular players admitting  their participation.  And I haven't. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, we may not know who has specifically admitted to cheating, but conventional wisdom is that they all pretty much did, isn't it?  I mean this isn't like steroids where it's reasonable to think that some people did and some didn't on a given team. 

I don't think a particular hitter said: "I don't want you doing that while I'm at bat... don't his the trash can."

Furthermore, if any hitter did come out and say they told the Astros not to do it when they were at a bat, it wouldn't be too hard to go back and check, would it?  I just assume any hitter for the Astros during those years cheated.  Coming out and publicly admitting it wouldn't make me think less of them... in fact, it might make me think (slightly) higher of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think it will pass in time.  I don't see people making a deal out of this in 2025.

Yes and no... I mean, I don't think it'll be water cooler talk beyond Spring Training, honestly... but at the same time I think it will be one of those things that it brought out and discussed on occasion.  Any time there's a "questionable" something that happens in a WS: "This is the first time since 2017 that there's a cloud over the WS results..."  or  "Player X is assumed of cheating, but even if he did it doesn't taint team-Y's WS win like the Astros team cheating back in '17."

Or anytime the Astros make it to the post season or WS again: "This is the first WS appearance since the 2017 and 2019 seasons.... accomplishments which were marred by sign stealing..."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize I am in the minority, but I don't think it will be raised much, in part because people don't discuss past World Series champions all that much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I said this before and I'll say it again I just can't believe the players actually agreed to do it knowing full well they were cheating. Being a competitive person I refuse to cheat, I just don't feel right doing it, and I figured athletes would be even more competitive.   I get it if you were a AAAA player and doing this could be the difference between the minors or majors but for guys like Altuve who are already set for life I just don't see how they would want to win that way unless they were convinced that everybody was doing it or that it is "just part of the game".  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I said this before and I'll say it again I just can't believe the players actually agreed to do it knowing full well they were cheating. Being a competitive person I refuse to cheat, I just don't feel right doing it, and I figured athletes would be even more competitive.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I said this before and I'll say it again I just can't believe the players actually agreed to do it knowing full well they were cheating. Being a competitive person I refuse to cheat, I just don't feel right doing it, and I figured athletes would be even more competitive.   I get it if you were a AAAA player and doing this could be the difference between the minors or majors but for guys like Altuve who are already set for life I just don't see how they would want to win that way unless they were convinced that everybody was doing it or that it is "just part of the game".  

I am the opposite.  I think a lot of these individuals are looking for any and every edge available to them.  Win at all costs.

I also think there is also a lot of inherent job insecurity simply because the difference between starring and being a regular is not that great, and from being a regular and a fringe player is even less.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, RedRamage said:

Okay, we may not know who has specifically admitted to cheating, but conventional wisdom is that they all pretty much did, isn't it?  I mean this isn't like steroids where it's reasonable to think that some people did and some didn't on a given team. 

I don't think a particular hitter said: "I don't want you doing that while I'm at bat... don't his the trash can."

Furthermore, if any hitter did come out and say they told the Astros not to do it when they were at a bat, it wouldn't be too hard to go back and check, would it?  I just assume any hitter for the Astros during those years cheated.  Coming out and publicly admitting it wouldn't make me think less of them... in fact, it might make me think (slightly) higher of them.

It's better to be suspected than convicted.   I speak from experience. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I am the opposite.  I think a lot of these individuals are looking for any and every edge available to them.  Win at all costs.

I also think there is also a lot of inherent job insecurity simply because the difference between starring and being a regular is not that great, and from being a regular and a fringe player is even less.

I agree that highly competitive people tend to look for any edge they can get even if it means cheating.  That doesn't mean all of them do it, but I think there is a tendency.  Non-competitive people are probably less likely to cheat because they are not as driven to "win".  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I'm skewed cause of my golfing background and playing that most of my life cause with that you are instilled not to cheat and to have honor.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is sign stealing so much worse than pitchers throwing spitballs?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Why is sign stealing so much worse than pitchers throwing spitballs?  

Probably because the whole 'foreign substance' on the ball idea isn't actually worth all that much in practice? Just what is a wet ball going to do? It won't spin more, it can't be thrown harder. You might get it to knuckle a little but that is going to come at the cost of command. It's almost more like the idea has been a mental thing over the years just give hitters more to worry about, or vice versa pump up the pitcher's confidence in what he is doing.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found an interesting thread on twitter by Bill Petti.  More analysis is needed, but it looks like the cheating might not have helped that much.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I found an interesting thread on twitter by Bill Petti.  More analysis is needed, but it looks like the cheating might not have helped that much.  

 

It's been reported that some teams or even maybe just some batteries may had their suspicions and may have done enough sign changing to thwart the scheme. It's possible one might have to break it down to a fairly fine grain to see the  effect in narrower situations as compared to looking for it in the aggregate results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It's been reported that some teams or even maybe just some batteries may had their suspicions and may have done enough sign changing to thwart the scheme. It's possible one might have to break it down to a fairly fine grain to see the  effect in narrower situations as compared to looking for it in the aggregate results.

Stealing the stolen signs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Maybe I'm skewed cause of my golfing background and playing that most of my life cause with that you are instilled not to cheat and to have honor.   

What happens in the woods stays in the woods.  Except that my ball somehow gets out of the woods.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This looks like an appropriate punishment. Man City didn’t steal signs, but did violate league rules

Manchester City have been banned from European club competition for the next two seasons after being found to have committed "serious breaches" of Uefa's club licensing and financial fair play regulations. 

The reigning Premier League champions have also been fined 30m euros (£25m).

The decision is subject to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Manchester City say they are "disappointed but not surprised" by the "prejudicial" decision and will appeal.

The independent Adjudicatory Chamber of the Club Financial Control Body (CFCB) said City had broken the rules by "overstating its sponsorship revenue in its accounts and in the break-even information submitted to Uefa between 2012 and 2016", adding that the club "failed to cooperate in the investigation".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51510284

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, CMRivdog said:

This looks like an appropriate punishment. Man City didn’t steal signs, but did violate league rules

Manchester City have been banned from European club competition for the next two seasons after being found to have committed "serious breaches" of Uefa's club licensing and financial fair play regulations. 

The reigning Premier League champions have also been fined 30m euros (£25m).

The decision is subject to appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Manchester City say they are "disappointed but not surprised" by the "prejudicial" decision and will appeal.

The independent Adjudicatory Chamber of the Club Financial Control Body (CFCB) said City had broken the rules by "overstating its sponsorship revenue in its accounts and in the break-even information submitted to Uefa between 2012 and 2016", adding that the club "failed to cooperate in the investigation".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/51510284

LOL - hard to imagine a US sports franchise getting in trouble for lying about its finances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...