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Astro's stealing signs?

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9 hours ago, Casimir said:

This is the first that I've heard of this kind of punishment.

Seems fair, doesn't it?  If you are going to abuse it, you can't have it for a bit.   

Phil Garner is a rat.  

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2 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Seems fair, doesn't it?  If you are going to abuse it, you can't have it for a bit. 

I can understand the rationale behind it.

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53 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I can understand the rationale behind it.

Think about it.  $5 million is no chump change to you and me, but the Astros will cover that by a minor raise in prices and firing employees.   The loss of 4 draft picks hurts, but by the time that really has an effect on the Astros they probably will no longer be a contender.   They need to feel the sting NOW and if an immunity deal was made with players by MLB to admit all this, then there has to be a way to make them really feel this.     I think taking the technology away from them is one way to make a point.    

This assertion that Mike Fiers is a rat really bothers me.   No, he's an Oakland A's player now and their road block to winning a division right now is the Astros.  And  you know the A's, they won't keep this core together for long.     So why shouldn't he say something.  Maybe when they cheated they should have thought that their cheating would be held against them.   This ain't the mob.    If he was a hitter, I have no doubt the Astros would be throwing at his head.......and that still might happen with players on NL teams who think he should have kept quiet.   But honestly, I think there were plenty of guys that knew that never played for Houston,  Fiers just confirmed it....and people have to have someone to take it out on, right?         

They make me sick.  They have the talent to win it all, they really didn't need to do this.   And then the Red Sox probably did it too.  Imagine how angry Dodger fans have got to be, and I don't even like Dodger fans.    

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11 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Think about it.  $5 million is no chump change to you and me, but the Astros will cover that by a minor raise in prices and firing employees.   The loss of 4 draft picks hurts, but by the time that really has an effect on the Astros they probably will no longer be a contender.   They need to feel the sting NOW and if an immunity deal was made with players by MLB to admit all this, then there has to be a way to make them really feel this.     I think taking the technology away from them is one way to make a point.    

This assertion that Mike Fiers is a rat really bothers me.   No, he's an Oakland A's player now and their road block to winning a division right now is the Astros.  And  you know the A's, they won't keep this core together for long.     So why shouldn't he say something.  Maybe when they cheated they should have thought that their cheating would be held against them.   This ain't the mob.    If he was a hitter, I have no doubt the Astros would be throwing at his head.......and that still might happen with players on NL teams who think he should have kept quiet.   But honestly, I think there were plenty of guys that knew that never played for Houston,  Fiers just confirmed it....and people have to have someone to take it out on, right?         

They make me sick.  They have the talent to win it all, they really didn't need to do this.   And then the Red Sox probably did it too.  Imagine how angry Dodger fans have got to be, and I don't even like Dodger fans.    

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Just under 2%..I know it was the most they could levy.  If you make 50k a year it would be like paying for a speeding ticket basically.

 

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https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/2020/02/10/mondays-baseball-ex-blue-jay-bolsinger-sues-astros-sign-stealing-scandal/4720583002/

Bolsinger’s suit in Los Angeles County Superior Court seeks unspecified damages for interfering with and harming his career. He’s also asking that the Astros forfeit their nearly $30 million in postseason shares from their 2017 World Series title, with the money going to children’s charities in Los Angeles and a fund for needy retired players.

I'm against this and hope it fails miserably in court.  I'm not totally against the idea of forcing them to forfeit the postseason share, but the idea that a pitcher can sue for "interfering with and harming his career" is not good at all.  The problem is two fold:

1. There is no way to prove how much the Astro's cheating cause him to lose his job in the majors.  It may have been the catalyst but one bad outing isn't enough to force an entire league to not look again at a pitcher who had promise.  There's also no way to prove how much the cheating did or didn't help the Astro's in that outing.  Maybe instead of allowing 4 hits, 3 walks and 4 runs in 1/3 of an inning he only allows 3 hits, 2 walks, and 3 runs and the Blue Jays still drop him.

2. I'm not sure the Astro's did anything illegal.  Don't get me wrong, they cheated, but was it illegal outside of baseball?  There are things with-in the game that stand outside of normal laws.  For a reverse example, if some throws a ball at me and hits me... well, I could sue him for that.  But if it happens on a baseball diamond it's accepted as part of the game.  I'm not sure there is a legal leg to stand on here.  Of course, I'm not a lawyer at all, so I might be completely talking out of my butt.

If this guy is successful though... can you imagine the follow up suits?  Any other marginal reliever who faced the Astros in any "cheating" season and then didn't pitch in the majors again could have cause to say he lost his job because, in part, the Astros made him look bad.  And starting pitcher who was demoted to reliever... heck any pitcher who later signed a new contract could allege that he made less because the Astros damaged his reputation by cheating.

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IMO it would have to be a percentage type thing.  If he faced the Astros only a handful of times then throw it out.  If he faced them a BUNCH and got lit up every time, but fared well the other appearances then he has a leg to stand on IMO.

100 appearances...50 against the Astros, he got lit up by them AND fared well the other 50...then have at them.

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

None of that stuff in the last paragraph will happen.

Probably not... but if he's successful and I'm a relief pitcher who faced the Astros in the last few years and didn't fair well and I'm out of work right now I'm definitely going to file a suit.

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6 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

IMO it would have to be a percentage type thing.  If he faced the Astros only a handful of times then throw it out.  If he faced them a BUNCH and got lit up every time, but fared well the other appearances then he has a leg to stand on IMO.

100 appearances...50 against the Astros, he got lit up by them AND fared well the other 50...then have at them.

I can't imagine though that baseball in general wouldn't look at the splits themselves, even before the cheating was revealed.  If you see a guy who's otherwise effective but just stinks against one team, then I think he'd have a job still.  

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Nobody reputable looks at splits like that for an individual relief pitcher because the sample sizes would be too small to be statistically significant.

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50 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Probably not... but if he's successful and I'm a relief pitcher who faced the Astros in the last few years and didn't fair well and I'm out of work right now I'm definitely going to file a suit.

Anyone who is successful against everyone but a single team in the hypothetical would still be employed.

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Drove by the local welding place that features the "dad joke of the day" on their sign. Today's was "was going to put up a sign but an Astro stole it".

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23 hours ago, RedRamage said:

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/2020/02/10/mondays-baseball-ex-blue-jay-bolsinger-sues-astros-sign-stealing-scandal/4720583002/

 

I'm against this and hope it fails miserably in court.  I'm not totally against the idea of forcing them to forfeit the postseason share, but the idea that a pitcher can sue for "interfering with and harming his career" is not good at all.  The problem is two fold:

1. There is no way to prove how much the Astro's cheating cause him to lose his job in the majors.  It may have been the catalyst but one bad outing isn't enough to force an entire league to not look again at a pitcher who had promise.  There's also no way to prove how much the cheating did or didn't help the Astro's in that outing.  Maybe instead of allowing 4 hits, 3 walks and 4 runs in 1/3 of an inning he only allows 3 hits, 2 walks, and 3 runs and the Blue Jays still drop him.

2. I'm not sure the Astro's did anything illegal.  Don't get me wrong, they cheated, but was it illegal outside of baseball?  There are things with-in the game that stand outside of normal laws.  For a reverse example, if some throws a ball at me and hits me... well, I could sue him for that.  But if it happens on a baseball diamond it's accepted as part of the game.  I'm not sure there is a legal leg to stand on here.  Of course, I'm not a lawyer at all, so I might be completely talking out of my butt.

If this guy is successful though... can you imagine the follow up suits?  Any other marginal reliever who faced the Astros in any "cheating" season and then didn't pitch in the majors again could have cause to say he lost his job because, in part, the Astros made him look bad.  And starting pitcher who was demoted to reliever... heck any pitcher who later signed a new contract could allege that he made less because the Astros damaged his reputation by cheating.

There is a body of law regarding what risks are assumed in athletic competition and what sort of things that happen in that context may be actionable.  (And, of course, for a civil lawsuit the conduct complained of does not have to be a crime.)

As a general rule, if it happens as part of a more-or-less ordinary incident of the contest, there is no viable cause of action.  But if, say, a player starts a fight or takes off his helmet and hits someone in the head with it or inentionally hits someone with a bat, and an injury results, there could be a successful lawsuit or even criminal charges as a result.

For something that happens in the course of game play (as opposed to between plays or innings or on the sidelines), such as a pitcher hitting a batter with a pitch, the issue is moire complicated, because it could be very difficult to prove intent, and nearly impossible to prove negligence (such as "the pitcher should have used more rosin to keep the pitch from getting away from him" or something like that).  But given our increasingly litigious society, I wouldn't be surprised to see more people try to get these sorts of sports-related lawsuits off the ground.

As for Bolsinger's lawsuit, I suspect that his theory of causation ultimately won't fly -- the connection between the Astros cheating and his performance is likely to be ruled too tenuous and speculative -- but if he can survive an immediate motion to dismiss and get into discovery, he should be allowed to put Astros' players and other personnel on the hot seat in depositions, where they will have to answer questions under oath.  And that should be a lot more interesting than the overall outcome of the lawsuit.

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5 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

As for Bolsinger's lawsuit, I suspect that his theory of causation ultimately won't fly -- the connection between the Astros cheating and his performance is likely to be ruled too tenuous and speculative -- but if he can survive an immediate motion to dismiss and get into discovery, he should be allowed to put Astros' players and other personnel on the hot seat in depositions, where they will have to answer questions under oath.  And that should be a lot more interesting than the overall outcome of the lawsuit.

and since the Astro's no doubt don't want to do that, the only question becomes "how big a check" do they not want to do that?

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The Astros might pay to make it go away, but if they do, how many other players are then going to run to the courthouse to file against them?  If Bolsinger can get to the point of making them  answer questions under oath -- which they would have to do in answering interrogatories in writing and  live questions in depositions -- they will be between a rock and a hard place.  A very  tough choice between (1) answering the questions and either letting the cat out of the bag or committing perjury, and (2) setting a scary precedent by paying Bolsinger and potentially opening their teller window for more withdrawals.

 

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1 minute ago, six-hopper said:

The Astros might pay to make it go away, but if they do, how many other players are then going to run to the courthouse to file against them?  If Bolsinger can get to the point of making them  answer questions under oath -- which they would have to do in answering interrogatories in writing and  live questions in depositions -- they will be between a rock and a hard place.  A very  tough choice between (1) answering the questions and either letting the cat out of the bag or committing perjury, and (2) setting a scary precedent by paying Bolsinger and potentially opening their teller window for more withdrawals.

 

While I have read a million deps and sat in on quite a few I know little about the laws regarding them, but I wonder if they could get some kind of exemption to keep them private?  If they could then I see no reason not to let it get to that stage.

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18 minutes ago, John_Brian_K said:

While I have read a million deps and sat in on quite a few I know little about the laws regarding them, but I wonder if they could get some kind of exemption to keep them private?  If they could then I see no reason not to let it get to that stage.

It is possible to get a protective order to keep them confidential, and requiring that  if any part of them is filed in court it is done under seal (so only the court personnel can see it).  But there has to be a valid reason for the confidentiality.  Often that is something like the fact that the information includes trade secrets or could identify innocent persons who might be harmed by the disclosure.  Avoiding embarrassment or consequences resulting from one's own wrongdoing may not cut it.  And even a protective order would allow their use in open court for impeachment purposes during trial, if the case got that far. 

And, as we all know, even when things are supposed to be kept confidential, there are these things called leaks . . . 

It is quite possible that getting the discovery, as opposed to winning money, is the real principal purpose behind the lawsuit, and Bolsinger's attorneys would probably fight hard against any request for a protective order.  For any number of reasons, I doubt that the Astros would be able to keep their revelations under wraps.

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Very interesting take six-hopper... Thank you.

I do wonder what secrets they still need to keep though?  I mean, everyone knows they cheated with the banging.  The players have more or less acknowledged that it happened, didn't they?  The coaches and front office have largely been held accountable.  I suppose there's the rumor of the buzzer/wire... but isn't that even largely accepted at this point?  I can't imagine what more there is out there that would need to be hidden.

Of course, if the Astros DO settle, then the answer is probably a lot.

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Some people are under the presumption that the cheating really does not matter.  That the players just brush it off etc.  I highly doubt it, but that is all I know is that I will forever consider that 2017 team to be a bunch of cheaters.  Similar to how I feel about Ryan Braun and the MVP award that should have been Matt Kemps.

I think it matters, I think it SHOULD matter and I think the players on that team think it matters....now.

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I also do think it is a little funny that I would not remember them if they lost....so they are being remembered for being "good" cheaters....that is faintly ironic somehow.

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4 hours ago, RedRamage said:

Very interesting take six-hopper... Thank you.

I do wonder what secrets they still need to keep though?  I mean, everyone knows they cheated with the banging.  The players have more or less acknowledged that it happened, didn't they?  The coaches and front office have largely been held accountable.  I suppose there's the rumor of the buzzer/wire... but isn't that even largely accepted at this point?  I can't imagine what more there is out there that would need to be hidden.

Of course, if the Astros DO settle, then the answer is probably a lot.

You're welcome.

As for keeping secrets, none of the players has admitted that he himself cheated.   Any of them that do will be putting targets on their backs for individual abuse and possibly for punishment by MLB.  Not exactly analogous to the Black Sox scandal -- that involved losing on purpose as opposed to cheating to win -- but a bunch of the Black Sox were banned for life, and I could easily see a year or two suspension for a player who admits or is proved to have used the sign-stealing system.  The union would probably fight suspensions tooth and nail, but even if MLB punishment doesn't stick, any player who is individually "convicted" will not be in a happy place.

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1 hour ago, six-hopper said:

You're welcome.

As for keeping secrets, none of the players has admitted that he himself cheated.   Any of them that do will be putting targets on their backs for individual abuse and possibly for punishment by MLB.  Not exactly analogous to the Black Sox scandal -- that involved losing on purpose as opposed to cheating to win -- but a bunch of the Black Sox were banned for life, and I could easily see a year or two suspension for a player who admits or is proved to have used the sign-stealing system.  The union would probably fight suspensions tooth and nail, but even if MLB punishment doesn't stick, any player who is individually "convicted" will not be in a happy place.

My understanding was that MLB gave some level of immunity to the players to get testimony though... am I wrong on that?

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4 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

My understanding was that MLB gave some level of immunity to the players to get testimony though... am I wrong on that?

That is certainly what was reported. Did it happen? Who knows?

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https://theathletic.com/1603448/2020/02/13/the-astros-told-chris-archer-he-was-tipping-pitches-now-he-knows-they-were-willing-to-do-anything-to-win/

 

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Archer had pitched into the seventh inning that night in a 6-4 Rays win, but on a few swings it seemed like the Astros hitters knew what pitch was coming. It turns out, they did. The player on FaceTime, whose name Archer won’t disclose, had his answer: He was tipping his pitches. It was fixable.

At the time, Archer bought that explanation. Now, he knows it was a lie. He wasn’t tipping. The Astros were stealing his signs and smacking a trash can.

“It’s pretty messed up,” Archer told The Athletic this week. “The whole thing is messed up.” Later, he added, “It sucks when you dedicate your whole life to something, and somebody’s out there doing some shady **** like that.”

 

This isn't going away... it's going to become more of a thing during ST as players finally are asked and speak up.  I'm not sure anything else will be done but they don't need to vacate that title... it's going to be perceived as a fraud and the players themselves know that the ring they have in their safe is tainted.  When you look back on the career of a guy like Verlander and the fact he won a title with the Astros in 2017 it will be "oh yeah... that team..." followed by a snicker.

 

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