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RedRamage

Astro's stealing signs?

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1 hour ago, Casimir said:

I don't know.  Part of winning the World Series is all of the celebration and stuff that goes with it, and that cannot be taken away.  Winning the final game, the post game champagne, the victory parade, the adulation.  The can take the title away, but that stuff can't be.

And, so, its a vacated title, but big deal.  That's a few titles ago, so I'm not sure how much it really takes away from that season now.

And even if you assume that the cheating was the difference between Los Angeles and Houston, and Los Angeles should have won the World Series (which, I'm not sure how you can really prove that), then what?  Do you retroactively award the World Series to the Dodgers?  How does that work in a real and tangible sense?

Yep, I believe the Louisville team that beat Michigan in the finals several years back had to vacate that title, as a Michigan fan them vacating that title doesn't change the disappointment I felt that night or bring me any joy now.    

Same for their fans, it's not like they can go back in time and erase the fun and excitement they had and feeling they had watching their team win the championship which is the best part about your team winning imo.  

So yeah vacating the title may alter things historically in the record books but ultimately I don't think it means a whole lot to the team, management or the fans.  

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Why wouldn't you cheat?

In 2012, the Tigers should have cheated.  The penalties that MLB handed down amount to a slap on the wrist for the organization.  A $5 million dollar fine is nothing for MLB teams (I read somewhere that the Astros would have paid around $7 million in bonuses to those lost draft picks), especially after all the extra revenue from WS merchandise.  The loss of draft picks...not a huge deterrent.  And if you are the team owner, losing your manager and GM isn't that harsh in exchange for a world series title.  You get to keep the banner, the trophies, the rings....

I don't know if the Tigers would have won the series, but it wouldn't have hurt their chances.  I do know they didn't win the world series as things turned out.  So DD and Leyland get fired a few years later.  They would have lost 2 years of 1st round draft picks.  Technically be the 15 and 16 seasons, but I put down 14 and 17 too.  The team sucks anyway, would the organization been in any worse shape without any of these guys?  Gladly trade away all these guys, get rid of Leyland and DD and a $5 million dollar fine to win the WS.

2014 draft picks Derek Hill, Spencer Turnbull

2015 draft picks, Beau Burrows, Christin Stewart

2016 Matt Manning, forfeited for Zimmerman.

2017 Alex Faedo, Reynaldo Rivera

It's like the guy that steals $50 million dollars, gets to keep it but has to pay a $5 million dollar fine.

 

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I feel like the punishment is insufficient on the player side, but I don't know how you go about proving who was in and who was out.  And if MLB offered immunity, how can they roll over on that promise?

How would they deal with Fiers?  He knew about it, maybe he is the one that brought this to light.  But this was after he was out of Houston.

How would they deal with Beltran?  He is supposedly one of the main cogs of the operation.  But can they prove it?  And that was as a player, but now he is a manager.  So, is there a separation of duties there where MLB needs to treat him as a player because that is what he was then?

Trevor Bauer made a good point.  Yes, that Trevor Bauer (I'm generally not a fan of his at all, but he does make some solid points once in a while.).  He mentioned that all of this racket could be going on, but not all players want to know the signs, they would just rather go with their own skill sets without outside interference.  Or maybe they wanted help some of the time, but not necessarily all of the time.  Maybe they requested no help at all, but the system kept rolling.

And then going back to Beltran, his OPS was a paltry .666 that season, well under the previous season by almost 200 points and below his career averages by over 150.  If he orchestrated this, and it didn't help him at all (or, I guess it helped him do better than .600 or below, but how do we know for sure), how can one account for how much it helped the team?  I would imagine he was just an outlier to it, I would think it probably helped the Astros in the macro, but how much?  How can it be quantified?  It kind of goes back to the steroid argument.  It probably helped, but how does a number get put on it, can the results be quantified specifically?

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How are players getting away with this?  

It should be - if you are part of this it's 81 games.   If you admit your role you get 50 games.     The Astros are full of star players, they are still the favorite in the AL West.............that shouldn't happen.  They need to be punished for this.  

Carlos Beltran is probably next and even though a Lifetime Ban won't be necessary for Alex Cora because he's finished, it would send quite a statement.  

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2 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I feel like the punishment is insufficient on the player side, but I don't know how you go about proving who was in and who was out.  And if MLB offered immunity, how can they roll over on that promise?

How would they deal with Fiers?  He knew about it, maybe he is the one that brought this to light.  But this was after he was out of Houston.

How would they deal with Beltran?  He is supposedly one of the main cogs of the operation.  But can they prove it?  And that was as a player, but now he is a manager.  So, is there a separation of duties there where MLB needs to treat him as a player because that is what he was then?

Trevor Bauer made a good point.  Yes, that Trevor Bauer (I'm generally not a fan of his at all, but he does make some solid points once in a while.).  He mentioned that all of this racket could be going on, but not all players want to know the signs, they would just rather go with their own skill sets without outside interference.  Or maybe they wanted help some of the time, but not necessarily all of the time.  Maybe they requested no help at all, but the system kept rolling.

And then going back to Beltran, his OPS was a paltry .666 that season, well under the previous season by almost 200 points and below his career averages by over 150.  If he orchestrated this, and it didn't help him at all (or, I guess it helped him do better than .600 or below, but how do we know for sure), how can one account for how much it helped the team?  I would imagine he was just an outlier to it, I would think it probably helped the Astros in the macro, but how much?  How can it be quantified?  It kind of goes back to the steroid argument.  It probably helped, but how does a number get put on it, can the results be quantified specifically?

It doesn't matter if it helped Beltran, though............He (allegedly) was part of the process, one of the conduits (allegedly), he's not exactly a Buck Weaver here.    If a player used this system ONCE, that's enough to be severely punished.   Have some real teeth, MLB.   The players are the ones who benefited, This is weak.  

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3 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

It doesn't matter if it helped Beltran, though............He (allegedly) was part of the process, one of the conduits (allegedly), he's not exactly a Buck Weaver here.    If a player used this system ONCE, that's enough to be severely punished.   Have some real teeth, MLB.   The players are the ones who benefited, This is weak.  

My point about helping (or not) Beltran is that its difficult to quantify how it helped.  I don't think, just because a system was in place, that's what won them the 2017 World Series.  The same system was in place in 2018 and they didn't win the World Series that season.

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Do you think the MLBPA threatened MLB (a probable strike is looming in a year or so)?     To me that might be the only reason the players aren't getting nailed here, but there seems to be a bit of an uproar in the public about this, so there may be something coming.    None of these guys can claim they didn't know.......they're sitting in the dugout while someone is banging  something behind them.  

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Just now, Casimir said:

My point about helping (or not) Beltran is that its difficult to quantify how it helped.  I don't think, just because a system was in place, that's what won them the 2017 World Series.  The same system was in place in 2018 and they didn't win the World Series that season.

But the team that did win the World Series might have been using something similar by one of the guys who looks to have spearheaded the whole thing.  

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I read somewhere, I think, that players were basically given immunity in order to be frank with investigators.  You almost have to do that if you want to really get to the bottom of it... with guys moving around and having updated loyalties.   Add the fact that it was coach driven and implemented.

 

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15 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

But the team that did win the World Series might have been using something similar by one of the guys who looks to have spearheaded the whole thing.  

Yes, possibly.

Maybe the Dodgers were using a similar system, but it simply wasn't as good as Houston's/Boston's?  Maybe all teams have a system that is over the line?

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15 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I read somewhere, I think, that players were basically given immunity in order to be frank with investigators.  You almost have to do that if you want to really get to the bottom of it... with guys moving around and having updated loyalties.   Add the fact that it was coach driven and implemented.

 

Yes, I think I heard that as well.  MLB wanted to just end all of this now, and so this is the way it chose to contract its informants, so to speak.

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6 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Yes, I think I heard that as well.  MLB wanted to just end all of this now, and so this is the way it chose to contract its informants, so to speak.

All the teams have systems to steal signs, no doubt, but the difference is using cameras.   If you have guys standing on second base relaying signs (Hi Joe Mauer), that is fine - that player is a participant in the game. 

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9 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

All the teams have systems to steal signs, no doubt, but the difference is using cameras.   If you have guys standing on second base relaying signs (Hi Joe Mauer), that is fine - that player is a participant in the game. 

Yes, I understand that using cameras is crossing the line.  But how do we know that Houston & Boston were the only teams crossing the line?  Maybe they were just the ones that were furthest across the line?  Or maybe they're just the ones that have been caught so far and MLB is hoping that this is the end of it?

Remember when only power hitters took steroids to increase home runs?

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16 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yep, I believe the Louisville team that beat Michigan in the finals several years back had to vacate that title, as a Michigan fan them vacating that title doesn't change the disappointment I felt that night or bring me any joy now.    

Same for their fans, it's not like they can go back in time and erase the fun and excitement they had and feeling they had watching their team win the championship which is the best part about your team winning imo.  

So yeah vacating the title may alter things historically in the record books but ultimately I don't think it means a whole lot to the team, management or the fans.  

This has nothing to do with the other team IMO.  At least not from my perspective...it is not about handing over the title to someone else, it is about punishment for those who cheated.

If you do not think having the title taken away means anything to the team, the management or the fans then we have a HUGE disconnect because I think it would mean a lot.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Relatively few care about forfeited or vacated titles.

You still experienced the thrill while it was happening.   

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36 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Yes, I understand that using cameras is crossing the line.  But how do we know that Houston & Boston were the only teams crossing the line?  Maybe they were just the ones that were furthest across the line?  Or maybe they're just the ones that have been caught so far and MLB is hoping that this is the end of it?

Remember when only power hitters took steroids to increase home runs?

That's why you allow the players to be as frank as possible without repercussions.  If there were others then that's how you find out.

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As a Fab Five fan I think nothing less of the 1992-1994 seasons... they happened and I had fun.

 

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I don't even care about the Fab Five thing.

Martin paid players because he wanted to an association later if they became a star.

They were young and poor and wanted money.

I can't really be that mad at an athlete who is broke, not being paid a salary, and playing in front of 15,000+  becoming amenable to such an arrangement.  I suspect it happened at other places as well but it simply didn't get out. 

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9 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't even care.

Martin paid players because he wanted to an association later if they became a star.

They were young and poor and wanted money.

There are worse things happening on campuses than that.

Chris Webber was not poor.   And he was the worst offender. 

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

How much money did Chris himself have at the time?

Thats a cop out - he was not in the same situation as the others.........not even close.  His parents had money - maybe not wealthy, but they had enough.    He was just a crook.    

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