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2020 Modern Baseball Era Ballot Announced

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44 minutes ago, leflore said:

I think Lou is borderline from how I personally view the HOF but imho with middle infielders like Mazeroski and Aparicio already in, how do you keep Lou out? I'd place Lou above them. Maybe develop tiers in the hall? It's definitely getting watered down with guys like Baines imho. 

i dont think this is how you can judge who makes it.

if that were the case, just about every catcher who ever played would make it in because theyre better than rick ferrell and every second baseman because theyre better than rabbit maranville.

welcome to the hall of fame Alex Avila and placido polanco!

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29 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

So you are allowed four votes?

There's five that are worthy, imo:

  • Whitaker
  • Simmons
  • Munson
  • Evans
  • Miller

You can make a good case for Simmons, but I suspect he won't get much support.  He had a bad rep as a defender when he played and never got the attention he seemed to deserve.  I remember him being traded to the Brewers and Darrell Porter going to the Cardinals and Porter getting a lot of credit for the Cardinals success in the 80s.  That seemed odd to me since Porter was not that good and had a drug problem.   

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

i dont think this is how you can judge who makes it.

if that were the case, just about every catcher who ever played would make it in because theyre better than rick ferrell and every second baseman because theyre better than rabbit maranville.

welcome to the hall of fame Alex Avila and placido polanco!

My criteria is if you are as good or better than half the Hall of Famers at your position, then you belong.  

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6 minutes ago, Buddha said:

true, but i would argue it doesnt make you elite.

all depends on what your standards for the hall of fame are.  if youre a big hall guy, or someone who values longevity a lot, then i can see whitaker.  if youre someone who thinks the hall is only for players who were elite for a period of time - only for the very best - then i dont think whitaker makes the cut.

But I think we have to go with what the Hall already is and by the measure of current inductees I think it's the former...

Not every player should be judged against the top 2 or 3 of their position of all time.  Every HOF SS can't be Cal RIpken, Ozzie Smith, or Honus Wagner.... same with 2B.

and baseball still has the most elite HOF of the 4 major sports.

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5 minutes ago, Buddha said:

true, but i would argue it doesnt make you elite.

all depends on what your standards for the hall of fame are.  if youre a big hall guy, or someone who values longevity a lot, then i can see whitaker.  if youre someone who thinks the hall is only for players who were elite for a period of time - only for the very best - then i dont think whitaker makes the cut.

Yes, it's fair to be a small Hall of Fame guy and think there are too many players in the HoF.  He is certainly not in the Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Gehringer class.  Given the way the voting has gone historically though, I think he belongs.   

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49 minutes ago, Oblong said:

But I think we have to go with what the Hall already is and by the measure of current inductees I think it's the former...

Not every player should be judged against the top 2 or 3 of their position of all time.  Every HOF SS can't be Cal RIpken, Ozzie Smith, or Honus Wagner.... same with 2B.

and baseball still has the most elite HOF of the 4 major sports.

Rick Ferrell has a WAR of 33.  If that's the criteria everyone wants to use, the following catchers should be in the Hall of Fame:

Russell Martin, Jim Sundberg, Jorge Posada, Jason Kendall, Darrell Porter, Lance Parrish, and soon Brian McCann.

Following right behind are Mickey Tettleton and Victor Martinez.

Rabbit Maranville has a WAR of 42.8.  IF that's the criteria, the following second basemen should be in the Hall of Fame:

Willie Randolph, Ben Zobrist, Tony Phillips, Chick Knoblauch, and Placido Polanco.

That can't be the criteria because too many marginal players were let into the Hall under the "we knew Frankie Frisch" standard.  Also, they just LET IN HAROLD BAINES.  That opens the hall up to every decent DH who's ever played the game.  Come on down Greg Luzinski!

I mean, let's be generous and call Harold a "right fielder."  By the WAR standard, the following players belong in the hall of fame:

Bobby Abreu, Bobby Bonds, Jack Clark, Brian Giles, Rusty Staub, JD Drew, Jose Bautista, Ken Singleton, Tim Salmon, Jesse Barfield, Magglio Ordonez, JASON HEYWARD.

If you can't judge the hall of fame by the best players at every position, you certainly shouldn't judge it by the worst players at the position.

 

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1 hour ago, tiger337 said:

Yes, it's fair to be a small Hall of Fame guy and think there are too many players in the HoF.  He is certainly not in the Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie, Morgan, Gehringer class.  Given the way the voting has gone historically though, I think he belongs.   

Honestly, I could go either way on Whitaker.  Of course I want him in the Hall because he's a Tiger and one of my favorite players, but if I'm a "small Hall" guy, he doesn't make the cut.

And Trammell is borderline too (too many bad seasons interspersed with great seasons) but I like him better than Whitaker because Trammell's highs were higher.  Morris, of course, doesn't belong in anyone's hall of fame.

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I don't think anyone is arguing because Rick Ferrell or Rabbit Maranville, therefore everyone with a solid 15 year career should get in.

Lou is at worst an average 2B in the hall.

I would suggest anyone that is good enough to be an average or better player in the hall for his position has demonstrated he is good enough for the hall.

  • Like 2

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Being consistently good to very good for 19 years is a rare thing.  

Agree.

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23 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't think anyone is arguing because Rick Ferrell or Rabbit Maranville, therefore everyone with a solid 15 year career should get in.

Lou is at worst an average 2B in the hall.

I would suggest anyone that is good enough to be an average or better player in the hall for his position has demonstrated he is good enough for the hall.

Leflore said that with players like Mazerowski in the Hall of Fame, how do you keep Lou out.  I took that as saying players better than Maz should be in the HOF, which could be my misunderstanding what he said.

It could also be a good way to liven up this thread with a little argument, but that would be devious and certainly not something I would ever do...

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Rabbit Marranville deserves to be in the hall of fame based on name alone.  The fact that Skeeter Barnes is still on the outside looking in is absolute horse ****.

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8 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Leflore said that with players like Mazerowski in the Hall of Fame, how do you keep Lou out.  I took that as saying players better than Maz should be in the HOF, which could be my misunderstanding what he said.

It could also be a good way to liven up this thread with a little argument, but that would be devious and certainly not something I would ever do...

Personally I would use Ryne Sandberg as the 2B comp.

Same era, Lou was better, and Sandberg is deserving of the hall.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Personally I would use Ryne Sandberg as the 2B comp.

Same era, Lou was better, and Sandberg is deserving of the hall.

Grich is better than both of them.

Sandberg's peak was much better than Whitaker's.  It's not Ryne's fault he's a dolt and his wife was banging half the team.

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15 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Not sure how Grich sort of fell off the radar.

cause baseball writers are stupid?

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6 hours ago, Buddha said:

i dont think this is how you can judge who makes it.

if that were the case, just about every catcher who ever played would make it in because theyre better than rick ferrell and every second baseman because theyre better than rabbit maranville.

welcome to the hall of fame Alex Avila and placido polanco!

It's really a balance of going with the standard that has been set up in the past versus your own personal standard.  Sometimes you have to adjust your standard so that it fits the established market.  If a player is better than say half of the players already in the Hall of Fame, then it's hard to not vote for him.  

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

My wife married me, so there is good support for that sentiment.

does your wife have a hall of fame vote?

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She could but has declined overtures because she does not feel she is qualified enough to vote on anyone who had a significant portion of their career before she moved here (she moved to the states in 1995).

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10 hours ago, Buddha said:

i dont think this is how you can judge who makes it.

if that were the case, just about every catcher who ever played would make it in because theyre better than rick ferrell and every second baseman because theyre better than rabbit maranville.

welcome to the hall of fame Alex Avila and placido polanco!

I definitely do compare when considering the HOF. Don't you? I think your examples are greatly eggaggerated. Maranville retired in the 1940s. Mazeroski retired in 1972. Much closer to Lou's era. If the eras are in close proximity I think comparison is valid.

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5 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

She could but has declined overtures because she does not feel she is qualified enough to vote on anyone who had a significant portion of their career before she moved here (she moved to the states in 1995).

Tom Hanks voice:

"There's no ethics in baseball!"

/Tom Hanks voice

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