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Lions @ Green Bay 10/14

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Brutally bad roughing the passer call in the Rams-Seahawks game tonight.  These mistakes shouldn’t happen.  It wasn’t particularly close.

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This article about Steve Yzerman being "disrespectful" to NHL officials made me think of my ongoing complaints about the NFL's treatment of the Lions. 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2019/10/03/ex-nhl-referee-steve-yzerman-disrespectful/3784568002/

Per Brendan Shanahan:

Quote

"Steve had that fire in the belly, that relentless, unyielding will to win, but you would be mistaken and it would be inaccurate to say he was disrespectful. He wasn't that kind of guy. He held everyone accountable on the ice, even the officials."

Shanahan did say Yzerman and some officials weren't on great speaking terms.

Shanahan remembers Yzerman's reaction when an official offered to buy them a round of drinks at a restaurant the day after ejecting Yzerman in the third period of a game in Nashville in 2003.

"Steve told the guy to (expletive) off ... and he (Yzerman) walked out of the restaurant," Shanahan said.

I like the fact that Stevie Y held the officials accountable. Just like you want your team to be tough to play against, maybe you want them to be tough to officiate against. If a ref is going to throw a flag against the Lions, I want that ref to know he's going to have to explain himself. It's just another way to get a competitive advantage, in a game that often hinges on a controversial call.

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On 10/3/2019 at 9:10 AM, JAYB said:

Lose. 1st goal should be to win the division. 

Well, they won. It looked like a few Packers got hurt though.

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8 hours ago, Jason_R said:

This article about Steve Yzerman being "disrespectful" to NHL officials made me think of my ongoing complaints about the NFL's treatment of the Lions. 

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nhl/red-wings/2019/10/03/ex-nhl-referee-steve-yzerman-disrespectful/3784568002/

Per Brendan Shanahan:

I like the fact that Stevie Y held the officials accountable. Just like you want your team to be tough to play against, maybe you want them to be tough to officiate against. If a ref is going to throw a flag against the Lions, I want that ref to know he's going to have to explain himself. It's just another way to get a competitive advantage, in a game that often hinges on a controversial call.

What does this mean? No player is holding an official accountable, only the league can. If you're being dicks to refs, it shouldn't (in theory) cost you any calls, but I can't imagine it would gain you any. Outside having some celebrity-style owner willing to take a fine to complain publicly and push the league towards action (which Martha is not), I don't see anyone effectively "holding officials accountable". 

As an aside, telling someone to f- off is disrespectful, virtually regardless of the circumstances. If the ref wanted to leave things on the ice and Stevie didn't, that's fine, but I don't think he needs to tell a man to f- off and storm out. That's childish. The quote from the book the official wrote about the ejection in is, "It (Yzerman berating an official) finally reached a point where I asked to meet with Detroit head coach Scotty Bowman. Bowman told me Yzerman had been difficult to get under control. I asked Scotty to strike a compromise. Bowman had other players like Doug Brown, Viacheslav Fetisov, Igor Larionov, and Chris Chelios, who didn't berate officials and could discuss penalties and calls with me without going over the top in a disrespectful manner."

Kinda sounds like Yzerman was a dick, not that his actions were helpful towards "holding officials accountable"

 

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14 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

What does this mean? No player is holding an official accountable, only the league can. If you're being dicks to refs, it shouldn't (in theory) cost you any calls, but I can't imagine it would gain you any. Outside having some celebrity-style owner willing to take a fine to complain publicly and push the league towards action (which Martha is not), I don't see anyone effectively "holding officials accountable". 

As an aside, telling someone to f- off is disrespectful, virtually regardless of the circumstances. If the ref wanted to leave things on the ice and Stevie didn't, that's fine, but I don't think he needs to tell a man to f- off and storm out. That's childish. The quote from the book the official wrote about the ejection in is, "It (Yzerman berating an official) finally reached a point where I asked to meet with Detroit head coach Scotty Bowman. Bowman told me Yzerman had been difficult to get under control. I asked Scotty to strike a compromise. Bowman had other players like Doug Brown, Viacheslav Fetisov, Igor Larionov, and Chris Chelios, who didn't berate officials and could discuss penalties and calls with me without going over the top in a disrespectful manner."

Kinda sounds like Yzerman was a dick, not that his actions were helpful towards "holding officials accountable"

 

I watched Steve Yzerman on the ice with the C on his jersey in a crap ton of games, and the idea that he was constantly being a dick to officials is just BS. Someone is trying to sell a book.

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28 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I watched Steve Yzerman on the ice with the C on his jersey in a crap ton of games, and the idea that he was constantly being a dick to officials is just BS. Someone is trying to sell a book.

He wouldn't have been an effective captain if he was constantly being a dick. Doesn't absolve him of being a dick at least in this case (if what is written is true). I'm just saying that being a dick to officials generally isn't going to help you win games.

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57 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

He wouldn't have been an effective captain if he was constantly being a dick. Doesn't absolve him of being a dick at least in this case (if what is written is true). I'm just saying that being a dick to officials generally isn't going to help you win games.

fair enough. I'm sure in over 1500 games Steve had a bad night or two when he probably lost it. But I can't support an implication that he was therefore a 'difficult' player.

Generally speaking, I think when this issue is  researched  the result usually shows that the home crowd influences officials subconsciously more that any league is willing to admit and probably more than any consideration of whether coaches or players are or will be giving them flack. It's the obvious pressure they are conscious of the need to  reject.

On the ownership end, if team ownership can make enough noise that the league comes down on an official that would be another matter. But I would think any FO has limited capital to spend with league officials in that way before they get tuned out as just malcontents or poor sports.....

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

fair enough. I'm sure in over 1500 games Steve had a bad night or two when he probably lost it. But I can't support an implication that he was therefore a 'difficult' player.

Generally speaking, I think when this issue is  researched  the result usually shows that the home crowd influences officials subconsciously more that any league is willing to admit and probably more than any consideration of whether coaches or players are or will be giving them flack. It's the obvious pressure they are conscious of the need to  reject.

On the ownership end, if team ownership can make enough noise that the league comes down on an official that would be another matter. But I would think any FO has limited capital to spend with league officials in that way before they get tuned out as just malcontents or poor sports.....

This is fair. I was just coming back to say it's also probably not fair to compare hockey with football, and to make clear that I'm not saying anything against Yzerman's contribution to Detroit, because that's not what I'm trying to do at all.

I think this article below is actually a good example of what I was talking about. Jerry Jones will probably get publicly fined, but what we won't see is the league telling the official to swallow that flag next time. And things like that, headlines on ESPN that the league has to answer to, are more likely to hold an official accountable than a player being a dick in a game, or even more literally, Jason Garrett costing his team 15 yards for spiking a challenge flag at an official's feet.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27788271/cowboys-jerry-jones-irked-little-darling-ref-flag-jason-garrett

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2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

He wouldn't have been an effective captain if he was constantly being a dick. Doesn't absolve him of being a dick at least in this case (if what is written is true). I'm just saying that being a dick to officials generally isn't going to help you win games.

If it’s all the same, I’ll assume Stevie Y knew what he was doing. 

Jerry Jones as well, even though he taunted the ref as “little darling.”

Listen, officials do a hard job, and I’m not suggesting that players or coaches berate them for sport. But especially in a game that is so over-officiated and poorly officiated as football, and where the outcomes of calls can be so dramatic, you cannot let your team repeatedly get the brunt of bad calls. 

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42 minutes ago, Jason_R said:

If it’s all the same, I’ll assume Stevie Y knew what he was doing. 

Jerry Jones as well, even though he taunted the ref as “little darling.”

Listen, officials do a hard job, and I’m not suggesting that players or coaches berate them for sport. But especially in a game that is so over-officiated and poorly officiated as football, and where the outcomes of calls can be so dramatic, you cannot let your team repeatedly get the brunt of bad calls. 

To me, as a fan, the most frustrating thing with hockey officials is that they miss things, but I don't generally have a lot of issue with what they call - in general in hockey the rules make sense and you know a trip or a cross-check when you see one. Today in football, I have no idea what is or isn't a hold, what is or isn't a catch, what is or isn't pass interference. Half the crews don't even enforce keeping he O-Line  at the  LOS on pass plays. IMO - the NFL needs to figure out how to get back to 'bright line' decision making on penalties. To me their attempts to incorporate so much nuance into the rules is choking the game to death.

I wouldn't mind a radical change for the NFL like not letting replay officials look at a play in anything but real time speed. You can look at it more than once, but If you can't see whatever it was at real time speed, let the call on the field stand. That would get rid of the gross errors without this craziness of dissecting whether the  ball shifted a fraction of an inch for 2 milliseconds in the receiver's grip as he hit the ground.

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

To me, as a fan, the most frustrating thing with hockey officials is that they miss things, but I don't generally have a lot of issue with what they call - in general in hockey the rules make sense and you know a trip or a cross-check when you see one. Today in football, I have no idea what is or isn't a hold, what is or isn't a catch, what is or isn't pass interference. Half the crews don't even enforce keeping he O-Line  at the  LOS on pass plays. IMO - the NFL needs to figure out how to get back to 'bright line' decision making on penalties. To me their attempts to incorporate so much nuance into the rules is choking the game to death.

I wouldn't mind a radical change for the NFL like not letting replay officials look at a play in anything but real time speed. You can look at it more than once, but If you can't see whatever it was at real time speed, let the call on the field stand. That would get rid of the gross errors without this craziness of dissecting whether the  ball shifted a fraction of an inch for 2 milliseconds in the receiver's grip as he hit the ground.

Yeah, in the NHL I usually get the feeling that when they’re swallowing their whistles, it is for both teams. And maybe they get tricked by a dive, but it happens, and evens out over a season or series. 

But a TD catch reversed after a ten minute review doesn’t even out. And it also insults the fans who know, this used to be a catch but now is not anymore. 

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7 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I wouldn't mind a radical change for the NFL like not letting replay officials look at a play in anything but real time speed. You can look at it more than once, but If you can't see whatever it was at real time speed, let the call on the field stand. That would get rid of the gross errors without this craziness of dissecting whether the  ball shifted a fraction of an inch for 2 milliseconds in the receiver's grip as he hit the ground.

I could get behind this as well.  

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2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

 And it also insults the fans who know, this used to be a catch but now is not anymore. 

This is what I don't agree with.  I don't know when bobbling the ball while landing out of bounds was considered a catch - maybe before the rule change you mentioned in 1982.  

Now under G2's proposal, the call on the field probably stands, which I'd be fine with, but with the current review, it definitely wasn't a catch IMO.

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2 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Yeah, in the NHL I usually get the feeling that when they’re swallowing their whistles, it is for both teams. And maybe they get tricked by a dive, but it happens, and evens out over a season or series. 

But a TD catch reversed after a ten minute review doesn’t even out. And it also insults the fans who know, this used to be a catch but now is not anymore. 

They review goals too disallow them as well.  Sometimes that decisions don't make any sense as well.  The NHL has 82 games per team per year so the outcome of a single regular season game being decided by a bad call has far less weight than the NFL.

 

The NFL can and should do better.  There was an interception in the Chiefs-Colts last night that had no business getting overturned yet somehow it was.  It's crazy that they use a little *** monitor on the field with someone else controlling the replay.  It could and should be done remotely in the time it takes the ref to get the headset on and his little TV ready. 

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On 10/4/2019 at 4:55 PM, RedRamage said:

 

I have seen soo many worse calls on RTP or just in general...even last night.  His helmet was too close to his head...that will be called all day on most QB's who do not play for Detroit!  :P

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2 hours ago, John_Brian_K said:

I have seen soo many worse calls on RTP or just in general..

Yeah, it was a bad call, but not to the point where it's deserving of the hue and cry it has inspired.

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18 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Generally speaking, I think when this issue is  researched  the result usually shows that the home crowd influences officials subconsciously more that any league is willing to admit and probably more than any consideration of whether coaches or players are or will be giving them flack. It's the obvious pressure they are conscious of the need to  reject.

 

There has actually been studies about this and every one shows a bias towards the home team. Some of the studies have it at just a slight advantage but how many games are decided on just one play? And it's the same for all 4 major sports;

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070403112044.htm

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6 hours ago, holygoat said:

Yeah, it was a bad call, but not to the point where it's deserving of the hue and cry it has inspired.

Yes, it is. The calls aren't being called consistently. If it's a penalty against Brady, it's a penalty against Stafford.

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It was ticky tack but he clearly extended his arms and pushed him after the ball left his hand.  That is something that you could've held up from doing if you wanted to.  

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On 10/7/2019 at 12:24 PM, holygoat said:

Yeah, it was a bad call, but not to the point where it's deserving of the hue and cry it has inspired.

Agreed.

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Anyone heard anything more on Hockenson?  Only news I can find is from Sept. 30th saying he had a concussion but that the Lions are NOT putting them on IR.

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My theory that the Lions are going to do something I do not expect after apathy struck me last year (2 years ago?)...so the "do not care if they win or lose" me thinks they should win this game so I would bet money they lose.

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