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4 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't even think he was soft.

He wasn't an alpha personality.  He would have been fine being the Robin to someone's Batman.

Really, I kinda felt he had Isiah level talent with Joe's personality (as a player).

But I don't think he ever faked injury or didn't try or backed down from a challenge / contact, which is what I think of when I think of a player being soft.

other than being a cog on a juggernaut duke team, i dont recall hill ever being the guy coming up big in the playoffs or championship game.  part of that is injuries in his prime, i assume.  but part of it is his personality.  isiah would kill you to win a game of tiddly winks.  grant hill wouldnt.

thats my arm chair psychology.

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2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm not saying you retire his number, but I feel he is more deserving than others. I don't necessarily have a problem with Hamilton's if it is done as all five.

he was a better all around player for detroit than hamilton or vinnie johnson, thats for sure.

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Grant took plenty of key shots for the Pistons.

The bigger problem is they didn't have that many important regular season or play-off games while he was the team before he got injured.  The Pistons usually were worse than the teams they played in the post season as well.

EDIT: Then the Magic rushed him back from injury, permanently ****ing his career.

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That really could have been a dynamic duo in Orlando with McGrady and Hill. McGrady is another player who I think gets overshadowed a lot. He damn near led the 8th seeded Magic to an upset win over the Pistons in the playoffs. Had it been the year prior, they would have upset the Pistons.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Part of the Pistons problem in that time frame was they didn't have a point guard that facilitated.

Wasn't Grant Hill really the point guard on that team?

Also, when did that Iverson trade happen that got nixed? Was that before or after Hill left?

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21 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

That really could have been a dynamic duo in Orlando with McGrady and Hill. McGrady is another player who I think gets overshadowed a lot. He damn near led the 8th seeded Magic to an upset win over the Pistons in the playoffs. Had it been the year prior, they would have upset the Pistons.

yeah, between hill and mcgrady they would have had a **** of a time passing to each other late in games while the shot clock ran out...

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40 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

Hamilton is definitely a stretch to retire. I think you retire Ben and Chauncey from that era and that's it. Vinnie is a stretch as well. 

Hamilton was just as much a part of team success as Wallace and Billups were. He was their best scorer.

That's the thing about that team and is what made them unique. There were no stars, it was a bunch of guys who were equally important playing their roles perfectly so I don't agree that any player should be considered more important than the other. An argument can be made that you either retire all their numbers or none of them since each were equally important.

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42 minutes ago, Buddha said:

other than being a cog on a juggernaut duke team, i dont recall hill ever being the guy coming up big in the playoffs or championship game.  part of that is injuries in his prime, i assume.  but part of it is his personality.  isiah would kill you to win a game of tiddly winks.  grant hill wouldnt.

thats my arm chair psychology.

Isiah was one of the toughest players to ever play the game so I don't think it's fair to call Hill soft just because he didn't have the killer instinct Isiah did. Also keep in mind that Hill came into the league when it was transitioning away from bully ball so a lot of players from that late 90s weren't deemed as tough as the players from the previous era.

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a lot of guys just dont want the burden of being the main dude who has to take the last shot.  i would put hill on that list.  mcgrady is up there.  chris webber.  scottie pippen.

doesnt make them bad players.  all those guys are great players.  but when the time comes to take the shot, i dont think those guys want to be the guy to take it.

just my observation. 

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They said that about Lebron until he won. If you put Billups, Hamilton, and Rasheed with Prince coming off the bench around Grant Hill, that's a really good team. Even without Ben, which I feel could have been had for some minor pieces that wouldn't affect the core, you could plug in Okur and have a nice team. Only issue is that Hill would have been getting up there by the time that going to work crew got put together and hit their stride. 

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18 hours ago, NYLion said:

Hamilton was just as much a part of team success as Wallace and Billups were. He was their best scorer.

That's the thing about that team and is what made them unique. There were no stars, it was a bunch of guys who were equally important playing their roles perfectly so I don't agree that any player should be considered more important than the other. An argument can be made that you either retire all their numbers or none of them since each were equally important.

I just don't see it that way.  Hamilton was a good fit with that group, but he was also the most replaceable. Any number of catch and shoot scorers could have fit into that role, and you may have even found one that could create a little better than he did. On the other hand, you weren't plugging anyone else into the role of a 4 time defensive player of the year and Chauncey was the floor general, so you definitely weren't replacing his brains.

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19 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

They said that about Lebron until he won. If you put Billups, Hamilton, and Rasheed with Prince coming off the bench around Grant Hill, that's a really good team. Even without Ben, which I feel could have been had for some minor pieces that wouldn't affect the core, you could plug in Okur and have a nice team. Only issue is that Hill would have been getting up there by the time that going to work crew got put together and hit their stride. 

they said that about lebron because it was true.

remember, dallas put jj barea on him in the finals and lebron wouldnt go at him, instead deferring to wade all the time.

it wasnt until the playoffs the next season against boston, game 6 i believe, when lebron took charge.  since that time he's been a top 5 all time player and finally acted like it.

lebron was also so young, its understandable it took him a while to grow into that role.  hill may have at one point, but injuries robbed him of his prime years when one would expect that transformation to take place.

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Hill gets overlooked because he did nothing great.  He was very good at almost everything, but great at nothing.  You see it today with Kawhi.  IMO he is the best player in the game today, but rarely is he mentioned in that conversation.  Although, Kawhi is great on defense unlike Hill, but nobody gets excited about defense.

But yeah, for the six years he was here,  Hill was every bit as good if not better than Thomas.  But you still don't retire his number.  He wasn't here long enough.  

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