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And I think it is damn near criminal how disregarded Hill was.

There very much was an attitude that he wasn't a winner or the type of player you could build a winner around.

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49 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Obviously his career numbers don't stack up to guys like Isiah and a host of others but if you just want to talk about pure greatness and talent Grant Hill maybe the best player to ever play for the Pistons.     I was watching old highlights of him on youtube the other day and it was unreal how explosive he was and how quick his first step and leaping was.   

He came into the league as Jordan was leaving and he was on the short list of players to be the next face of the NBA. Probably the last true superstar the Pistons had except for maybe Griffin. Would have been nice to see a healthy Hill play on the Going to Work team with Prince coming off the bench.

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2 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

You don't get Ben Wallace, tho.

Ben Wallace was a journeyman and a scrap at that time. They find another way to get him in my fantasy.

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1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

One of my favorite players as a kid was Grant Hill. Probably better than any one of the going to work Pistons and yet will never be recognized by the organization. It was a rough time watching the team in teal.

It was tough - not much talent and the teal uniforms. YUCK.
They had one solid year with Grant Hill.

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

And I think it is damn near criminal how disregarded Hill was.

There very much was an attitude that he wasn't a winner or the type of player you could build a winner around.

He isn't given much love, that's for certain.

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Doug Collins had that weird falling out with him where Doug felt Grant should have had his back but Grant didn't.

Remember that?

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Doug Collins had that weird falling out with him where Doug felt Grant should have had his back but Grant didn't.

Remember that?

I don't remember that. But then again, at the tail end of the Grant era I think I was in Illinois and I probably wasn't on top of the team as much as I should've been

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As I recall, Doug was losing the team after a few successful seasons, and players went to Davidson to complain (Otis Thorpe? headed it).

Grant wasn't involved, but Doug was pissed Grant didn't go to Bill to sing Doug's praises.  I guess Grant's silence spoke volumes.

I probably have the particulars wrong.  Anyone else remember?

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isiah will always be the best piston.  he dragged this team from nothing to a championship.  he made them interesting when they sucked and he made them champions when they were good.  he was always the most important cog in that team.  the idea of a little man dominating the game like that rarely happens (especially pre 3 point bonanza days) and he did it twice.

yeah, he's a piece or crap off the court and everything he touches turns to lead, but i dont care about that, i'll still remember putting 24 in a quarter with a busted ankle on michael cooper in the finals and 52 on john stockton's overrated *** after he got jobbed out of a dream team spot.

yeah, i love joe d too like everyone else, but it was isiah and laimbeer who people my age will remember as the heart of that team cause they were, in fact, the heart of that team.

grant hill.  come on.  softer than charmin.  

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Besides Jordan and Pippen was there any wing better than Grant from 95-00?  

I think at one point most would say he was a top 5 player overall, was Isiah ever considered that? (Not rhetorical genuinely curious)

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11 hours ago, Buddha said:

isiah will always be the best piston.  he dragged this team from nothing to a championship.  he made them interesting when they sucked and he made them champions when they were good.  he was always the most important cog in that team.  the idea of a little man dominating the game like that rarely happens (especially pre 3 point bonanza days) and he did it twice.

yeah, he's a piece or crap off the court and everything he touches turns to lead, but i dont care about that, i'll still remember putting 24 in a quarter with a busted ankle on michael cooper in the finals and 52 on john stockton's overrated *** after he got jobbed out of a dream team spot.

yeah, i love joe d too like everyone else, but it was isiah and laimbeer who people my age will remember as the heart of that team cause they were, in fact, the heart of that team.

grant hill.  come on.  softer than charmin.  

Dumars was my favorite, but, yes, Thomas was the better player.

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17 hours ago, Buddha said:

isiah will always be the best piston.  he dragged this team from nothing to a championship.  he made them interesting when they sucked and he made them champions when they were good.  he was always the most important cog in that team.  the idea of a little man dominating the game like that rarely happens (especially pre 3 point bonanza days) and he did it twice.

yeah, he's a piece or crap off the court and everything he touches turns to lead, but i dont care about that, i'll still remember putting 24 in a quarter with a busted ankle on michael cooper in the finals and 52 on john stockton's overrated *** after he got jobbed out of a dream team spot.

yeah, i love joe d too like everyone else, but it was isiah and laimbeer who people my age will remember as the heart of that team cause they were, in fact, the heart of that team.

grant hill.  come on.  softer than charmin.  

110% with you on this.

Isiah is, without question, the best Piston of all time. Not only his talent but his heart, his attitude, the whole package. If he wanted to, he could have put up bigger numbers but he completely bought into the team concept and sacrificed some personal greatness for the better of the team. When you think Detroit Pistons, you think Isiah Thomas before anybody else. Also agree with Stockton being overrated and I get a little triggered when so many people rank Stockton over Isiah but that's another argument for another time.

I think some judgment of Isiah gets clouded because of some of the off the court issues and because his executive career bombed so unceremoniously but he's easily the best Piston of all time and a player who is generally criminally underrated. 

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19 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

As I recall, Doug was losing the team after a few successful seasons, and players went to Davidson to complain (Otis Thorpe? headed it).

Grant wasn't involved, but Doug was pissed Grant didn't go to Bill to sing Doug's praises.  I guess Grant's silence spoke volumes.

I probably have the particulars wrong.  Anyone else remember?

I do remember Doug wearing out his welcome. I guess I didn't know that he begged for Grant's support.  If a coach has to do that to try to drum up support, then he's probably already done for.

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Grant Hill's peak was short lived and he didn't have much team success. When he was at his peak, he was as a good as any Piston. My argument with Grant Hill is that he is being thought of more negatively because of the lack of team success. No way Richard Hamilton should have his number retired over Hill. That is all about team success.

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Winning means a lot. That's just how it will always be. Take the only star off of an average team and they're the worst team in the league, but that guy's still not winning MVP.  It's going to be the best player on one of the top teams, even though they may have 2 other great players getting them there.  Jersey retirements are the same way.  A player on a team that gives you a championship is going to get more respect.

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1 hour ago, DTroppens said:

I do remember Doug wearing out his welcome. I guess I didn't know that he begged for Grant's support.  If a coach has to do that to try to drum up support, then he's probably already done for.

I remember reading about Doug's displeasure with Grant in the spring sometime, and that was when I 100% knew there was no way for Doug to recover the room after that.

Not that it was ever practically recoverable once Otis went off the reservation, but I didn't know that then.

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I feel with the Going to Work team, you either retire all five of their numbers or none of them. One ceremony to hang all five of their numbers from the rafters. I don't like this one by one essentially ranking the players. Apparently the organization feels Hamilton is the third best player from the team. I just feel it would have been more fitting to do it all at once. Regarding Hill, was he really softer than any other star in the league? I guess it didn't help he came on the team not long after the Bad Boy era so even football and hockey players would look soft compared to that team.

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I don't even think he was soft.

He wasn't an alpha personality.  He would have been fine being the Robin to someone's Batman.

Really, I kinda felt he had Isiah level talent with Joe's personality (as a player).

But I don't think he ever faked injury or didn't try or backed down from a challenge / contact, which is what I think of when I think of a player being soft.

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vinnie johnson and rip hamilton should not have their numbers retired.  dave bing is borderline but probably not.  everyone else is fine.

hill's problem was that he got hurt right before going into his prime and then bailed on the organization shortly thereafter.  how do you retire that guys number?  you cant.

i dont think any piston whose number has not already been retired should be retired.  

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2 minutes ago, Buddha said:

vinnie johnson and rip hamilton should not have their numbers retired.  dave bing is borderline but probably not.  everyone else is fine.

hill's problem was that he got hurt right before going into his prime and then bailed on the organization shortly thereafter.  how do you retire that guys number?  you cant.

i dont think any piston whose number has not already been retired should be retired.  

I'm not saying you retire his number, but I feel he is more deserving than others. I don't necessarily have a problem with Hamilton's if it is done as all five.

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Hamilton is definitely a stretch to retire. I think you retire Ben and Chauncey from that era and that's it. Vinnie is a stretch as well. 

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