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Betrayer

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On 10/1/2019 at 11:13 AM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think he had some good ideas that:

a. led to success -> hubris, and

b. were really hard to duplicate paired with the league gradually shifting to increasing importance to outside shooting.

The Josh Smith signing is very representative of this.

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I was looking up things on basketball reference earlier today and saw one of Thomas' listed nicknames was "Baby Faced Assassin".  I only remember "Zeke".

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16 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I was looking up things on basketball reference earlier today and saw one of Thomas' listed nicknames was "Baby Faced Assassin".  I only remember "Zeke".

I only remember "Usedmydaughtertocoverupmysuicideattempt".  

Talk about someone that should not ever be associated with this organization.  Thomas is it.

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That whole episode was so bizarre and disturbing, yet it rarely is mentioned (perhaps precisely because of how disturbing it is?)

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It is funny to this day to see interviews with Thomas and Jordan/Pippen and how much they still don't like each other.

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10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It is funny to this day to see interviews with Thomas and Jordan/Pippen and how much they still don't like each other.

And how Jordan & Pippen went along with Rodman as a teammate.

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On 9/30/2019 at 11:41 PM, Betrayer said:

The real beginning of the end was bringing in Flip, a low percentage jump-shot happy coach with a regular season system.  For a team that was built on their defensive prowess, he was a terrible fit and couldn't replace the hall of fame, defensive minded Larry Brown.  It was obvious to anyone paying attention - and many of us on this board had a lot to say about it at the time.

Ben leaving a year later was a direct result of Flip's poorly fit system, and it was the next major domino to fall. At that point, you had lost the heart and soul of the team.

I guess we know, we pretty much agree with this assessment.

But it's hard to know how much the players wanted someone like Flip. It seems like some of the team just didn't want to put the effort they had for the last 3-4 years on the defensive side of the floor any more.

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On 10/2/2019 at 8:13 AM, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I think Joe is still warmly regarded, but I do agree with the premise that he went from near deity status to someone people like.

Dumars made some terrible decisions that led the team down some horrible years, but it amazes me how many people just disregard the "Going to Work" Pistons era and him having his fingerprints all over that squad.  The Pistons have had two outstanding eras in their entire franchise career. One was with Dumars as a player. The other he was the guy that created the team. I thought as time went by, people would start to remember him for the two outstanding eras he helped create, but it seems people focus more on his final years still. Maybe it'll take another at least solid era to make people change their opinions on his legacy.  For me, I'll take two trips to the NBA Finals and think very highly of Dumars. Yes, he made mistakes down the stretch, but he created no worse than the second-best era of Pistons basketball ever. For that, I'll forgive him for the bad. 

Again, except Bill Davidson, Dumars is the only person that had a direct impact on the success of every single one of the Pistons' greatest franchise seasons ever. Well those two and maybe Mike Abdenour. :)

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It's kind of like Alan Trammell. People quickly forgot about the 2003 Tigers after the 2006 Tigers. Now we are reminded of the 2003 Tigers so maybe Trammell will be viewed more negatively again.

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8 minutes ago, DTroppens said:

Dumars made some terrible decisions that led the team down some horrible years, but it amazes me how many people just disregard the "Going to Work" Pistons era and him having his fingerprints all over that squad.  The Pistons have had two outstanding eras in their entire franchise career. One was with Dumars as a player. The other he was the guy that created the team. I thought as time went by, people would start to remember him for the two outstanding eras he helped create, but it seems people focus more on his final years still. Maybe it'll take another at least solid era to make people change their opinions on his legacy.  For me, I'll take two trips to the NBA Finals and think very highly of Dumars. Yes, he made mistakes down the stretch, but he created no worse than the second-best era of Pistons basketball ever. For that, I'll forgive him for the bad. 

Again, except Bill Davidson, Dumars is the only person that had a direct impact on the success of every single one of the Pistons' greatest franchise seasons ever. Well those two and maybe Mike Abdenour. :)

Nobody was harder on Joe at the end than me.  And I'm totally willing to forgive and forget and embrace him as the most important person in the organizations history.

But Dumars hasn't done himself any favors by entering the witness protection program.  Zero interviews, zero appearances.  He doesn't show up for number retirements or reunions.  He doesn't show up just to watch a game.  

He needs to make himself visible and give us a chance to forgive him.

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's kind of like Alan Trammell. People quickly forgot about the 2003 Tigers after the 2006 Tigers. Now we are reminded of the 2003 Tigers so maybe Trammell will be viewed more negatively again.

I hope that the Pistons have another solid era and maybe something like that can happen. At least in my opinion, Dumars should be remembered way more for what he accomplished (two trips to the NBA finals) than the bad.

Again, I'll say this. The Pistons have had two really outstanding eras in their history. The rest of their franchise history isn't very good. What do both eras have in common? Joe Dumars.

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I remember hearing that Dumars turned down a Hamilton, Stuckey and Prince for Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo trade like 10 years ago.    I don't think that would have completely changed things but it couldn't have made things any worse than they turned out. 

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Just now, Deleterious said:

Nobody was harder on Joe at the end than me.  And I'm totally willing to forgive and forget and embrace him as the most important person in the organizations history.

But Dumars hasn't done himself any favors by entering the witness protection program.  Zero interviews, zero appearances.  He doesn't show up for number retirements or reunions.  He doesn't show up just to watch a game.  

He needs to make himself visible and give us a chance to forgive him.

I can go with some of that. He probably would help himself being around when reunions happen and a few things like that.
But, really, I go back to this thing about him "having to be forgiven." Forgiven for what? Some bad seasons? The Pistons' franchise history is filled with bad/mediocre seasons. Why would people worry about "getting a chance to forgive him" when there's so many outstanding bright spots to just celebrate? I certainly criticized him at the time for some of his decisions as the team fell apart, but I don't think I ever would get to the point of thinking he needs to apologize for his efforts with the organization - certainly not how many years it has been later.

Like you said, minus maybe Bill Davidson, he's the most important Piston of all time.

Now, remember, all of this is being said by a guy that still keeps a Joe Dumars Upper Deck basketball card I got for a gift on the wall of my kitchen. It just sticks out like "What the heck is that thing doing there.?" :)

 

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I picked the right day to check out the board for the first time in about six or seven months.

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1 minute ago, DTroppens said:

I can go with some of that. He probably would help himself being around when reunions happen and a few things like that.
But, really, I go back to this thing about him "having to be forgiven." Forgiven for what? Some bad seasons? The Pistons' franchise history is filled with bad/mediocre seasons. Why would people worry about "getting a chance to forgive him" when there's so many outstanding bright spots to just celebrate? I certainly criticized him at the time for some of his decisions as the team fell apart, but I don't think I ever would get to the point of thinking he needs to apologize for his efforts with the organization - certainly not how many years it has been later.

Like you said, minus maybe Bill Davidson, he's the most important Piston of all time.

Now, remember, all of this is being said by a guy that still keeps a Joe Dumars Upper Deck basketball card I got for a gift on the wall of my kitchen. It just sticks out like "What the heck is that thing doing there.?" :)

 

Joe was easily my favorite player as a kid.  

When I say a chance to be forgiven, I mean nobody has a clue how people will treat him because he hasn't made himself available.  My guess is he gets a Darrell Evans type standing ovation.

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Joe was my favorite player as a kid as well.  It's funny, I would go to some PIstons games as a kid and teen but it wasn't like I had season tickets or anything, my parents would take us to like 3-5 a year but just by chance I was in attendance for his 10,000 point(never forget it was against the Bulls and it was a baseline 3), his 20,000 point and his final game.  

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29 minutes ago, DTroppens said:

Dumars made some terrible decisions that led the team down some horrible years, but it amazes me how many people just disregard the "Going to Work" Pistons era and him having his fingerprints all over that squad.  The Pistons have had two outstanding eras in their entire franchise career. One was with Dumars as a player. The other he was the guy that created the team. I thought as time went by, people would start to remember him for the two outstanding eras he helped create, but it seems people focus more on his final years still. Maybe it'll take another at least solid era to make people change their opinions on his legacy.  For me, I'll take two trips to the NBA Finals and think very highly of Dumars. Yes, he made mistakes down the stretch, but he created no worse than the second-best era of Pistons basketball ever. For that, I'll forgive him for the bad. 

Again, except Bill Davidson, Dumars is the only person that had a direct impact on the success of every single one of the Pistons' greatest franchise seasons ever. Well those two and maybe Mike Abdenour. :)

Not everyone, not even the majority most likely.  Remember what you read/see/hear online is usually put there to get clicks...anger/wanting to vent anger, are what get clicks online.  Same with TV.

Joe Dumars was one of those guys I looked up to as a kid.  I liked how great he played and how reserved he was about it.  I really liked that as a kid and I respect it now as an adult.

Joe D will always be the man.  Being great is not enough for these people anymore...they have to be perfect...luckily for them no one is perfect...it gives them unlimited ammo.

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10 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Joe was easily my favorite player as a kid.  

When I say a chance to be forgiven, I mean nobody has a clue how people will treat him because he hasn't made himself available.  My guess is he gets a Darrell Evans type standing ovation.

I wonder if maybe crazy Pistons fans like us have a different view of how he would actually be perceived. I hope you are right. I hope he'd get a DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS standing ovation.

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I don't doubt that he would get a standing ovation, if he got anything else I would be completely ashamed of the fans.    

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8 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Joe was my favorite player as a kid as well.  It's funny, I would go to some PIstons games as a kid and teen but it wasn't like I had season tickets or anything, my parents would take us to like 3-5 a year but just by chance I was in attendance for his 10,000 point(never forget it was against the Bulls and it was a baseline 3), his 20,000 point and his final game.  

As a kid I went to one game before the Palace era. It was a hard battle for me to get my parents to buy anything but Tigers tickets. For that, I could actually get my Dad to let us out of school for opening day. But before I had a car and legitimate money and had to rely on parents to get me to sporting events, I went to one Lions game (free tickets given to my dad), one Red Wing game (free tickets given to my dad) and no Pistons games. I wanted to go to a Michigan Panthers game and told my Dad I'd pay for our tickets with my work money (I was 14 at the time). I don't remember if I ended up paying for the tickets or not. That probably shamed him into buying them instead.

I would've died to go to 3-4 Pistons games a year back when I was a kid. We lived in West Bloomfield and Utica. We were a short car drive away from the Silverdome all those years.

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2 minutes ago, DTroppens said:

As a kid I went to one game before the Palace era. It was a hard battle for me to get my parents to buy anything but Tigers tickets. For that, I could actually get my Dad to let us out of school for opening day. But before I had a car and legitimate money and had to rely on parents to get me to sporting events, I went to one Lions game (free tickets given to my dad), one Red Wing game (free tickets given to my dad) and no Pistons games. I wanted to go to a Michigan Panthers game and told my Dad I'd pay for our tickets with my work money (I was 14 at the time). I don't remember if I ended up paying for the tickets or not. That probably shamed him into buying them instead.

I would've died to go to 3-4 Pistons games a year back when I was a kid. We lived in West Bloomfield and Utica. We were a short car drive away from the Silverdome all those years.

Thankfully my Step Dad would usually get the tickets for free from clients, of course most of the games were unappealing weekday games against garbage teams that his clients just didn't want to go to.  The 10K game against the Bulls was on the weekend though, I think my parents actually bought those tickets.   

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One of my favorite players as a kid was Grant Hill. Probably better than any one of the going to work Pistons and yet will never be recognized by the organization. It was a rough time watching the team in teal.

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Obviously his career numbers don't stack up to guys like Isiah and a host of others but if you just want to talk about pure greatness and talent Grant Hill maybe the best player to ever play for the Pistons.     I was watching old highlights of him on youtube the other day and it was unreal how explosive he was and how quick his first step and leaping was.   

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