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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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12 hours ago, tiger337 said:

More importantly, people should also stop looking so hard for opportunities to offend people.  If someone is offended by something you say, don't say it.  If you are with friends and you all get each other, say what you want.  Know your audience and you shouldn't have any problems.    

Stop being rational.  We cannot allow it here.

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Villar tends to not be split dominant to one side of the plate or the other, at least over the course of his career.  Camden may have helped him out a little bit last season, but not too much, .810 OPS at home vs .775 on the road.

He seems to be on the minus side of the defensive spectrum per bbref, but we know how those numbers aren't necessarily the best.  Maybe sticking him at one position helps alleviate some of that?  Not sure how shifts and how Baltimore vs Detroit usage would affect that.

At the very least, his 24 HRs were higher than any Tiger last season (if you ignore the 39 and 25 that Boyd and Norris gave up).

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On 11/28/2019 at 1:03 AM, leflore said:

A war of 4 is significant. I think he'll end up on a contender, but we'll see. 

He hasn’t established himself as that consistently 4 win player and he is sliding into the back half of his career, but who knows, maybe one of the analytical super teams can figure out how to unlock his potential on a consistent basis.

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17 hours ago, tiger337 said:

More importantly, people should also stop looking so hard for opportunities to offend people.  If someone is offended by something you say, don't say it.  If you are with friends and you all get each other, say what you want.  Know your audience and you shouldn't have any problems.    

I agree, assuming that the original intent was  specifically to offend. But if you allow "ambitious victims" to determine what the source could ONLY have intended to offend them...you have a problem caused by the arrogance of their ambition to claim offense.

I guarantee you that we were using the expression "drink the Kool-aid" in 1973 as a  way to describe people who  were overly enthusiastic to the point they were self deluded....."tripping" in the parlance of the day.

If I were to say that certain Tiger fans had "drank the Kool-aid" in context with the current rebuild strategy, I would most certainly be saying that they had their mindshare recruited by the manufactured spin........and any conflicting assumption that I was referencing mass suicide would, in fact,  be in error.

I'm overweight, so does that give me the right to claim I have been "offended" by any public debate contemplating a soda tax TO THE EXTENT THAT ANY FURTHER DEBATE BE PROHIBITED so as not to offend me?

I firmly believe that if someone is determined to become offended, they will succeed, regardless of what happens in the real world. And to place censorship on non-mean spirited expression simply for the sake of allowing professional victims to feel empowered, is worse than counter productive. 

You would  have a "king and his clothes" type dynamic at work .

 

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I believe that part of our individual responsibility of living in a "free" society, is TO NOT BE OFFENDED every time some other person touches on an area where we ourselves have a sensitivity.

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45 minutes ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

I believe that part of our individual responsibility of living in a "free" society, is TO NOT BE OFFENDED every time some other person touches on an area where we ourselves have a sensitivity.

working in a place like a University I've come to see both side of this issue a little more. On the one hand, if you are going to communicate effectively in a multicultural society -  to teach, mentor, collaborate, you have to learn to understand other peoples' frames of reference and try not to step on unseen landmines that can torpedo  your efforts;  not to mention it is just human decency not to do things to distress people you care about, especially if you are on the higher power end of an asymmetrical relationship.

But all that said, in the end I don't see that there is any moral obligation on the part of any society *as a whole* to accommodate itself to the cultural predispositions of people who come to that society to live voluntarily, at least in so far as what they are finding fault with wasn't immoral or unethical by our own standards to begin with. IOW, if an emigre comes here and complains he is not being treated in accordance to our own professed  standards, he has a point. But as a counter example I don't think we have any obligation at all to change our habits of mind or speech because it offends the religious sensibilities or cultural habits of some group who practiced a different social discipline where they came from or even of any given domestic counter culture. In may view societies do have a fairly broad right to their own cultural stds as expressed by the majority preferences in that society.

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Imho if your intent is to offend it's a form of bullying. It can also be a passive aggressive behavior. Figure out what you're angry about and deal with it directly.

I do agree that we all say things at times that might offend someone but that is not the intent. The healthy response is for the recipient to inform the offender, and the offender to apologize. 

It does seem like increasingly people are not responding this way, instead viewing that non-intending offender as non-enlightened, abusive or even evil - just look at our state of partisan politics. In social psychology it's called the fundamental attribution error. The capacity to dialog about it and move forward seems to be decreasing.

So a) don't bully; and b) don't be so thin skinned as to react as if the person who said something offensive is evil. DBT provides a wonderful, evidence-based model for handling this in a healthy manner.

 

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They had this Psychologist on the Joe Rogan show a couple months ago,  can't remember his name but he brought up something that I never heard before.  We all hear about how much "softer" people are now and what not and he said there could be a psychological reason for that.

He suggested that all throughout history humanity spent every day essentially just trying to survive, all their energy from their brain was essentially used to do whatever it takes to stay alive but with each passing generation it becomes easier and easier on us so the mind basically creates problems out of nowhere to make up for the lack of obstacles we have compared to our ancestors and other animals on this planet.  I'm sure I"m not wording what he said properly but how he said It made some sense. 

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1 hour ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

I believe that part of our individual responsibility of living in a "free" society, is TO NOT BE OFFENDED every time some other person touches on an area where we ourselves have a sensitivity.

I think everybody has things they get offended about.  Every group has things that they feel are sacred which shouldn't be joked about.  We don't agree on the topics which shouldn't be joked about.  

Edit: I hope I didn't offend anyone with my terrible sentence structure.

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2 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I think everybody has things they get offended about.  Every group has things that they feel are sacred which shouldn't be joked about.  We don't agree on the topics which shouldn't be joked about.  

Edit: I hope I didn't offend anyone with my terrible sentence structure.

I'm offended. *******.

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On 11/28/2019 at 12:24 PM, JackPine said:

Yeah, he could be a good bench piece on a contender.

He would be a great bench guy and insurance piece for a contender. He'd be ideal for that. But after a four-win season during which he started 159 games, it would not do Jonathan Villar's career any good to sign on as a bench player, and no contender would pay $10 million for someone like that. When he signs somewhere, it's going to be with assurances that he'll starts, and it's going to be for as close to $10 million per annum (or more) as he can get.

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Things completely suck for the four pro franchises, and though I believe firmly that the Lions, Tigers and Pistons could field decent (.500)-to-playoff level teams consistently within a fairly short time period (2 yrs), it aint gonna happen because we are saddled with three utterly incompetent owners.

Please, please, somebody sell!!!!!

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2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

Things completely suck for the four pro franchises, and though I believe firmly that the Lions, Tigers and Pistons could field decent (.500)-to-playoff level teams consistently within a fairly short time period (2 yrs), it aint gonna happen because we are saddled with three utterly incompetent owners.

Please, please, somebody sell!!!!!

This suggests the Red Wings have competent ownership?

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21 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I think everybody has things they get offended about.  Every group has things that they feel are sacred which shouldn't be joked about.  We don't agree on the topics which shouldn't be joked about.  

Edit: I hope I didn't offend anyone with my terrible sentence structure.

How about expecting the "offended" party as having at least the responsibility to make sure they understand the intent of the person they are targeting with their complaint? You really don't want to empower people to actively misconstrue intent and dictate policy based upon what might well be (their own) opportunistic intent, do you?

I'm not talking about racial or ethnic slurs here, I'm talking about someone, such as Oblong in this instance, choosing to take a very narrow interpretation of a metaphor, and choosing to be offended by it.

On a broader scale, I do believe that some people have a "control" fixation where they do aspire to structure the behavior of others around them by making manufactured allegations that they have been offended. Bear In mind that I am not accusing oblong of such behavior, just that when I encounter what appears to be expeditionary claims of being offended, I begin to wonder if perhaps aspirations of control are not the real motive.

All of that said, it's funny we are even having this conversation here, based upon much of the reading I've done here, very few of you really seem to give a damn if you offend others....more likely you just have certain areas  you consider "sacred turf", and have declared certain parts of the landscape off limits.

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22 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

working in a place like a University I've come to see both side of this issue a little more. On the one hand, if you are going to communicate effectively in a multicultural society -  to teach, mentor, collaborate, you have to learn to understand other peoples' frames of reference and try not to step on unseen landmines that can torpedo  your efforts;  not to mention it is just human decency not to do things to distress people you care about, especially if you are on the higher power end of an asymmetrical relationship.

 

In much the same vein of Oblong's complaint, many of the children in Waco were not given  the choice of escaping the firestorm that ultimately consumed them. Does that give me empowerment to insist that metaphoric employ of terms such as "fire sale" or "Firestorm"  are thoughtless or even willful attempts to trivialize the victims of Waco?

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50 minutes ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

All of that said, it's funny we are even having this conversation here, based upon much of the reading I've done here, very few of you really seem to give a damn if you offend others....more likely you just have certain areas  you consider "sacred turf", and have declared certain parts of the landscape off limits.

Sure, people say some offensive stuff here.  You would expect that from a bunch guys blowing off steam on a Sports message board.  However, there have been numerous instances where people said they were offended by stuff or felt people were being mean and then the offenders backed off.  One example was multiple people said we were going overboard piling on Emily Waldon and then people backed off even though many didn't agree they were being mean.    

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43 minutes ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

In much the same vein of Oblong's complaint, many of the children in Waco were not given  the choice of escaping the firestorm that ultimately consumed them. Does that give me empowerment to insist that metaphoric employ of terms such as "fire sale" or "Firestorm"  are thoughtless or even willful attempts to trivialize the victims of Waco?

Fire sale and fire storm are usually not used to belittle people.  The term drinking the koolaid is used to tell someone they are stupid or naive.  Depending on your audience, it might be good natured ribbing or it could be bullying.  Know your audience.  I actually don't think the term is bad to use at MTS, but there are settings where I probably wouldn't use it.  

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On Thursday, November 28, 2019 at 7:49 PM, tiger337 said:

More importantly, people should also stop looking so hard for opportunities to offend people.  If someone is offended by something you say, don't say it.  If you are with friends and you all get each other, say what you want.  Know your audience and you shouldn't have any problems.    

I don't look hard for those opportunities.  They just constantly present themselves.  The current environment of people looking for something to be offended by is a target-rich one.  And I will not knock myself out trying to miss the targets.

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15 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

I don't look hard for those opportunities.  They just constantly present themselves.  The current environment of people looking for something to be offended by is a target-rich one.  And I will not knock myself out trying to miss the targets.

If your intent is to demean, or even categorize someone based on your perceived stereotypes or characterizations, then you are simply being unkind. Be kind.

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

This suggests the Red Wings have competent ownership?

no....the three owners are CI, TG and MF....all utterly incompetent.

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Don't offend anybody?  Twitter told me I needed to go to Thanksgiving dinner and lecture people about how much they suck if they don't agree with me politically.  Is that wrong?

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1 hour ago, Buddha said:

Don't offend anybody?  Twitter told me I needed to go to Thanksgiving dinner and lecture people about how much they suck if they don't agree with me politically.  Is that wrong?

I met with some politically misguided friends yesterday and we were able to discuss politics civilly.  

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I don't discuss politics....I might if someone were to say "yeah...you're right my stance on that issue is imbecilic" but that never happens, so I don't engage people on the topic.

Re offensive language...if someone offends you and you mention it....  If they sincerely apologize, I think it's incumbent upon you to say "no harm no foul" and thank them for the apology.

Too many people hang onto their indignation these days.

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