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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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10 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

So which of the 9 players would you put Miller ahead of?

All of them and none of them.  I would not compare him to the players.  He made a different contribution to the game than the players.  

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14 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

I believe that Marvin Miller would not even be considered if it were not for Curt Flood and the subsequent lawsuits and negotiations that followed. 

The Curt Flood case did not help the players earn free agency, was advised against by Marvin, and although it is commonly felt Marvin presented the case well, he (and Curt) lost.

So I don't think Curt Flood is a particularly good reason to support Marvin's candidacy.

Setting that aside, I concede the following statement is true, 'Marvin would not even be considered if it were not for ... the subsequent lawsuits and negotiations that followed.'   The problem with it is it is akin to saying Henry Aaron wouldn't be considered for the Hall if it weren't for all those HR he hit.

In other words, if you take away or dismiss someone's key accomplishments, then they will not look impressive.

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6 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

It made him famous and it is the Hall of Fame.

Lee, you know damned well the fact it is called the Hall of Fame does not mean or imply fame is a criterion for selection.

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4 minutes ago, Casimir said:

The Braves turned down a $12M option on Julio Teheran.  His BB9 has climbed the past few seasons, which seems kind of odd for a kid in his late 20s.  The Tigers still need SP to bridge the gap between now and the Erie kids.  I wouldn't expect him to sign with the Tigers, I would imagine he goes elsewhere (Houston probably resurrects his career).  But he's probably a guy the Tigers should consider.

I agree, another guy I'd take a look at is Danny Salazar who was just released by the Indians.  He's been oft injured the past few years but when healthy his stuff is electric.  

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4 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

All of them and none of them.  I would not compare him to the players.  He made a different contribution to the game than the players.  

Agree, I don't think Miller is comparable to the players.

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10 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

All of them and none of them.  I would not compare him to the players.  He made a different contribution to the game than the players.  

This, however, is the correct answer.

The question as posed was a false choice.

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1 minute ago, Casimir said:

Agree, I don't think Miller is comparable to the players.

I will say, if the question is who had the largest impact on MLB, Miller or any of the individual players listed, it unquestionably is Miller.

I love Lou Whitaker.  I have nothing negative to say about him, he is clearly a HoF caliber player, and I think him the most deserving of the players eligible.

His impact on MLB baseball is relatively miniscule relative to Marvin Miller.

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5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I agree, another guy I'd take a look at is Danny Salazar who was just released by the Indians.  He's been oft injured the past few years but when healthy his stuff is electric.  

I'd certainly kick the tires at a minimum.

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I'd say Miller deserves it as much as any other non player or manager or GM.... we put broadcasters in, commissioners... I don't see why not him.  

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11 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

It made him famous and it is the Hall of Fame.  I personally would not give him much credit for it.  He shouldn't get in just for that.  However, given that he was also a very good pitcher with some Hall of Fame credentials, I think the surgery becomes a factor in the final decision.

It kind of brings into question how much of the success for the surgery was John's for being the patient but working through the rehab part, how much of the success was Dr. Frank Jobe's for being the surgeon, and how much of the success was Mike Marshall's for assisting with John's career via Marshall's post surgery tutoring and working with John on his delivery and grip.

Maybe it isn't hall of fame worthy if John was some random pitcher before and after.  I get that.  But John wasn't necessarily a spot starter or long man out of the rotation. 

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2 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I'd say Miller deserves it as much as any other non player or manager or GM.... we put broadcasters in, commissioners... I don't see why not him.  

Yes, this is what I meant by Miller not being comparable to the players.  Miller's contributions to the game are hall of fame worthy.  I wouldn't consider him at the expense of a player, which was a question posed before.  The players that deserve to get in should get in, completely independent of Miller who also deserves to be elected.

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15 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I agree, another guy I'd take a look at is Danny Salazar who was just released by the Indians.  He's been oft injured the past few years but when healthy his stuff is electric.  

He lost 2018 and part of early 2019 to shoulder surgery/recovery.  He lost late 2019 to a groin injury.

I'd say its worth inquiring and due diligence.  Maybe the one thing that scares me a bit is that Salazar hasn't pitched many innings during a season but twice (170 IP in 2014 and 191 IP in 2015).  Everything else has been below 150 IP.  But I guess the flip side is that beggars can't be picky and the Tigers need arms to throw reasonable innings.

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38 minutes ago, Casimir said:

It kind of brings into question how much of the success for the surgery was John's for being the patient but working through the rehab part, how much of the success was Dr. Frank Jobe's for being the surgeon, and how much of the success was Mike Marshall's for assisting with John's career via Marshall's post surgery tutoring and working with John on his delivery and grip.

Impossible to parse out.  The surgeon did his job, Tommy sought out good advice and then worked his *** off in an informed / efficient manner.  I have no doubt all of those factors played a significant part.

But here is the thing.  Tommy isn't the first guy to have a heretofore untried arm surgery, seek advise on how best to recover, and work his *** off to return as an effective player.  Dazzy Vance did it damn near 50 years before John did, and that wasn't a consideration in Dazzy getting into the hall.

In general, unless the player did something that objectively is truly groundbreaking (e.g. Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier), I think only on field performance should get a player in the hall.  Lots of guys work really, really hard to recover from injury.

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17 minutes ago, Casimir said:

He lost 2018 and part of early 2019 to shoulder surgery/recovery.  He lost late 2019 to a groin injury.

I'd say its worth inquiring and due diligence.  Maybe the one thing that scares me a bit is that Salazar hasn't pitched many innings during a season but twice (170 IP in 2014 and 191 IP in 2015).  Everything else has been below 150 IP.  But I guess the flip side is that beggars can't be picky and the Tigers need arms to throw reasonable innings.

Nothing to lose.

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39 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I'd say Miller deserves it as much as any other non player or manager or GM.... we put broadcasters in, commissioners... I don't see why not him.  

Off the top of my head at 9 AM on a Tuesday, the only non players that had a bigger impact on the game were Branch Rickey and possibly John McGraw (as a manager).

I am sure I am missing a couple, though.

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53 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Lee, you know damned well the fact it is called the Hall of Fame does not mean or imply fame is a criterion for selection.

In general, it doesn't, but

tinker-evers-chance.jpg

 

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I don't understand the Dr. Jobe part.  Should he be in the Sports Doctors Hall of Fame?  Absolutely--should probably have his own wing.  But the athlete still has to perform.  There have been a multitude of Tommy John and other serious arm injuries surgeries since, and I would guess a few players who have benefited from this are in the Hall or will be.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but Tommy John, if he gets in, did it on his own.  Otherwise, if Barry Bonds gets in, we'll also have to credit the founder of Balco, Inc.  Actually, in that instance, it may be appropriate.

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6 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

In general, it doesn't, but

tinker-evers-chance.jpg

 

Because a near universally lampooned selection in the earliest days of the hall is the basis on how candidates are evaluated. 

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8 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

"So, you're saying there's a Chance?"

 

This is a quality post.

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9 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

I don't understand the Dr. Jobe part.  Should he be in the Sports Doctors Hall of Fame?  Absolutely--should probably have his own wing.  But the athlete still has to perform.  There have been a multitude of Tommy John and other serious arm injuries surgeries since, and I would guess a few players who have benefited from this are in the Hall or will be.

Maybe I'm missing your point, but Tommy John, if he gets in, did it on his own.  Otherwise, if Barry Bonds gets in, we'll also have to credit the founder of Balco, Inc.  Actually, in that instance, it may be appropriate.

I was just sort of playing devil's advocate with the surgery thing and who gets credit for it.

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16 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

You are nicer than I.

I would say it is an unsubstantiated claim, and almost certainly BS.

It was a joke, son.

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2 hours ago, Oblong said:

I'd say Miller deserves it as much as any other non player or manager or GM.... we put broadcasters in, commissioners... I don't see why not him.  

Thinking outside the box, and we wouldn't know for a couple or three decades at least, but: what are the chances Scott Boras ever makes the Hall? Or, at least, gets a listing on this kind of ballot? His broad impact on the game falls well short of Marvin Miller, of course, but he was the first super agent and did a lot to reshape free agency for a long time.

Boras is still working, of course, but if he can somehow break Baseball of its borderline collusion to depress free agency during the past couple of years to the benefit of the players, he might warrant real consideration.

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