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IdahoBert

2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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The last time they bottomed out to the tune of sub 50 wins they signed Pudge and improved by 29 games.   I am not expecting anything like that, but can you get me to 63 wins?  

I still can't believe Illitch extended Al Avila.   

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30 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I am not asking for them to sign a star.............just a couple of actual decent major league position players............just something.

You want them to purposely block an error-prone slow-of-foot Mendoza Line infielder for someone clearly better? Madness! 

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5 hours ago, socaltiger said:

I am not saying give up prospects but rather buy them by taking on Myers contract and doubling down by trading Boyd. I don't think Boyd or taking Myers contract alone nets us Urias,Trammell, Abrams and Meija but maybe the combination does. Jimenez and Goodrum are just random add ons to sweeten the deal and could be someone else if needed. Those four might net us C,SS,2B and CF for the next 6 years and are better than what we have anywhere in the system. Myers is bad but does have some power and him, Urias and Meija could play in 2020 with Abrams and Trammell arriving in a couple years with Paredas and Greene. Add in Mize, Manning and Skubal and we could be pretty decent. 

There is zero chance you are getting all those four in any package the tigers have to offer.

And San Diego isn't a great trade partner for us. I think they're system is a bit overrated as guys like Tatis have been called up. Don't get me wrong I'd take some of their guys, but I'm not giving up everything I got and taking on a bad contract to net their guys. They are no better than other teams have to offer. Tiger fans have this weird affinity to do these complex deals where were throwing in a lot and we're taking all the other guys best prospects. Deals that complicated rarely happen. 

But, as I said they aren't a great trade partner. They don't have a huge pitching need, maybe two guys and they can just sign Strausburg back to his hometown and call up Gore. They need a CF which we don't have. 

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21 hours ago, socaltiger said:

I am firmly in the impatient camp. This team needs a quick infusion of talent. We should be all over the San Diego padres this winter. Their owner is publicly complaining. As someone here on the board posted earlier we can go get Myers who SD would love to unload for salary relief. But we should expand that into a  potential multi prospect haul by not just taking Myers salary but offering Boyd and Jimenez in the deal. Maybe add Goodrum for their 2b. We should target 2b Urias , SS Abrams, CF Trammell and C Mejia. Urias and Meija have struggled out of the gate at the MLB but remain talented players and the other two are tough gets but SD is set at SS. 

SD would have $$$ free to go for Cole/Strasburg and one of them with Boyd gives them a big boost now and we just might get 3 to 4 up the middle players for our future. Plus when Myers contract is up Miggy will only have one year left, our stud minor league pitchers will have a couple years at the MLB level under their belts and we can hit free agency hard. Plus we get better starting next year.

We need lots of talent and we need to spend to get it. Its time to get BOLD.

I really like this in theory, but need to aim a bit lower, and make it less complicated, like Boyd for Myers and prospects. Would love to get SD's tradeable draft pick as well.

Ultimately, this won't happen as 1) Chris I is not going to spend $60M on a FA or to bring in Myers and 2) the FO is just not creative enough to pull this off.

Really the plan seems to be: be bad and then magically be good. so dumb.

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23 minutes ago, RatkoVarda said:

 

Really the plan seems to be: be bad and then magically be good. so dumb.

Such magic. I mean magic that has worked in every sport for 100 years. 

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I don't get why anyone feels we shouldn't sign any free agents yet?  Do any of you really feel that we have that many position prospects who could be blocked?

This past season was sobering--we really only have two players that I have any confidence will be contributors to the major league team: Paredes and Greene, and neither have an established position yet, so it's highly unlikely they'll be blocked.  Guys like Clemens, Packard and Cameron might be average major leaguers, but that is their upside and nothing indicates it will happen.

We are completely devoid of any shortstops in the entire organization--why not try and get Didi Gregorius to a 3-4 year deal?  He would automatically be the best position player in the org.  And Ozuna?  Again, not blocking anyone.

We have no tradable assets, or at least none that wouldn't create a hole somewhere else (i.e., Boyd, Mize, Manning) if moved to get offense.

This turnaround should start now--our major league roster has zero players that should start on a good team.  Hopefully Rogers and Stewart pan out, but they have serious flaws in their game.  Castro might emerge into an Omar Infante type player, but he could also easily be a Ramon Santiago and not someone you bet on.  Goodrum and Reyes should be utility guys and nothing more.

Start chipping away--this will still take a few offseasons and drafts to get back to respectability, but why not start to address it now?  It's not like we're going to be able to acquire an entire lineup in one winter once the young pitchers start to contribute.

And this is not about the fans--it's BS to think you'll "lose" them.  They'll come running back as soon as you give them something to be excited about.  The reason to start to improve your team is because it is a process that will take time.

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9 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

I don't get why anyone feels we shouldn't sign any free agents yet?  Do any of you really feel that we have that many position prospects who could be blocked?

This past season was sobering--we really only have two players that I have any confidence will be contributors to the major league team: Paredes and Greene, and neither have an established position yet, so it's highly unlikely they'll be blocked.  Guys like Clemens, Packard and Cameron might be average major leaguers, but that is their upside and nothing indicates it will happen.

We are completely devoid of any shortstops in the entire organization--why not try and get Didi Gregorius to a 3-4 year deal?  He would automatically be the best position player in the org.  And Ozuna?  Again, not blocking anyone.

We have no tradable assets, or at least none that wouldn't create a hole somewhere else (i.e., Boyd, Mize, Manning) if moved to get offense.

This turnaround should start now--our major league roster has zero players that should start on a good team.  Hopefully Rogers and Stewart pan out, but they have serious flaws in their game.  Castro might emerge into an Omar Infante type player, but he could also easily be a Ramon Santiago and not someone you bet on.  Goodrum and Reyes should be utility guys and nothing more.

Start chipping away--this will still take a few offseasons and drafts to get back to respectability, but why not start to address it now?  It's not like we're going to be able to acquire an entire lineup in one winter once the young pitchers start to contribute.

And this is not about the fans--it's BS to think you'll "lose" them.  They'll come running back as soon as you give them something to be excited about.  The reason to start to improve your team is because it is a process that will take time.

It's not about blocking guys so much as we ain't winning this year and next year either. So we sign a 29 year old free agent to a big deal and then we waste his 29 and 30 year old season. Now we have a 31 year old with a big contract who likely isn't going to be as good as he was at 29.

Now you've got a 31 year old let's say Ozuna. Your committed to paying and playing him. Now let's say Greene is a LF who is ready. Well you've blocked him in or you have two guys at the same position. You also can't take that money and spend it on an I dunno Betts who plays RF when Green is ready to pay left. 

It's about roster construction and payroll flexability. 

We have no idea what the future hold, its silly to spend money now on aging players who aren't going to be as good when the future arrives. 

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25 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Such magic. I mean magic that has worked in every sport for 100 years. 

And in every sport you have lots of examples of teams who remain bad for decades. Luck is also involved. With the Tigers I think we all see systemic change is needed including an upgrade in player development.

I get Al's plan. I also see issues with it. It hinges on pitching prospects, mostly teenage position prospects and the hopes they pan out - then bringing in outside talent if and when the prospects pan out. And to me a big "if" - will Illitch open his wallet to sign FA? 

Maybe this plan will work but we are probably talking a few more years of bottom dwelling and then the "what ifs" fall into place as we hope, and then look toward contention. I'm not confident in that plan. 2019 was brutal. 2020 could potentially be just as bad with no bats and Jiminez as the closer. 

I'd like to see improvement, or drain the swamp. If neither happen I probably won't watch much next year.

 

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48 minutes ago, leflore said:

And in every sport you have lots of examples of teams who remain bad for decades. Luck is also involved. With the Tigers I think we all see systemic change is needed including an upgrade in player development.

I get Al's plan. I also see issues with it. It hinges on pitching prospects, mostly teenage position prospects and the hopes they pan out - then bringing in outside talent if and when the prospects pan out. And to me a big "if" - will Illitch open his wallet to sign FA? 

Maybe this plan will work but we are probably talking a few more years of bottom dwelling and then the "what ifs" fall into place as we hope, and then look toward contention. I'm not confident in that plan. 2019 was brutal. 2020 could potentially be just as bad with no bats and Jiminez as the closer. 

I'd like to see improvement, or drain the swamp. If neither happen I probably won't watch much next year.

 

Oh there are issues. I was just taking objection to the idea that its some kind of magic that takes you from going bad to good through drafting. That is how most teams go from bad to good. 

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Well, let's see:

1) On the 25 man roster, maybe Stewart and Rogers become hangers-on. That is about their ceiling. Everyone else is just AA talent.

2) Boyd and Turnbull will both be trade fodder before the team sniffs being meaningful.

3) Of the current minor league players, maybe Manning, Mize and a couple of others make it. Of the 5 or so potential arms in the minors, one should budget 3 blowing up.

4) There are no trade chips are left.

5) There are 2 position players that are of major league quality. Folks like Cam Gibson, Parker Meadows,  Daz Cameron, and Derek Hill are fool's gold, or pure lead.

6) The team is saddled with horrible player development. Drafting hasn't been too hot.

This team will be a 50 to 55 win team for 2020, 2021, and probably 2022. 2023 looks like the earliest year for improvement. Miggy is contracted until 2024. I don't see this "management" team spending any money until 2025 for certain, but a slight possibility in 2023.

Now I guess I need to find women's curling on tv.

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And all I want for Christmas is an outfielder than can hit the damned cutoff man.

 

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81BAA87E-FFD5-4433-BCD0-8D7DA9FF8559.thumb.jpeg.b996ce14ee610ecf4acaf8fd7feea4c1.jpeg

I checked ESPN on my phone just now and this thing with Keith Law came up, and I realized “Hey, I hate the Tigers too!” 

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On 11/2/2019 at 8:03 AM, Casimir said:

I don't know if that is true.  Results notwithstanding, if Harrison was on their radar and they got him as late as they did, clearly his demand was down, at least with respect to what he was looking for.

The market clearly wasn't there for Harrison and Mercer eventually convinced his team to sign his best friend.  As it turned out, the market was right and Avila was wrong.

It wasn't a matter of Avila waiting out the market for him.  It's more Avila feeling sorry for one of his players' best friend.

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On 11/2/2019 at 11:16 AM, leflore said:

Seems like some here are patient with the process and some of us growing restless. The draft is a part of the equation, and yes, I agree it doesn't make sense to sign someone to a huge, long deal yet. But I have no interest in watching the Tigers get outscored by the Indians 27-4 in a 3 game sweep next season. I have better things to do. God forbid, what if Mize truly is injury prone. Are people willing to wait another 5 years for some of the 16-17 year olds to see if they pan out? And what if they don't? Wait 10 years? I think they need to put a somewhat better product on the field next year. Instill some confidence in the fan base. Or wake me up in 5 years and hopefully this plan works out.

I think people are right to be impatient.  It normally doesn't take this long to field a competitive team.  At least not with competent management and scouting and a decent budget.  Avila and Ilitch spit out so much BS and the fans see right through it.  All Ilitch cares about it getting the payroll as low as possible.  The Tigers payroll is currently in the bottom 10 and I will bet that it goes even lower in 2020.  How much lower does it have to go before we are able to sign a big contract again?  "We can't sign anyone because we have to get X-player off the books" can't be used as an excuse much longer.  

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5 hours ago, leflore said:

And in every sport you have lots of examples of teams who remain bad for decades. Luck is also involved. With the Tigers I think we all see systemic change is needed including an upgrade in player development.

Luck or incompetence?  

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The Astros lost 106, 107, 111, and 92.

The Tigers have lost 98, 98, and 114.  

We're probably looking at two more seasons of around 100 losses.  

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1 hour ago, IdahoBert said:

81BAA87E-FFD5-4433-BCD0-8D7DA9FF8559.thumb.jpeg.b996ce14ee610ecf4acaf8fd7feea4c1.jpeg

I checked ESPN on my phone just now and this thing with Keith Law came up, and I realized “Hey, I hate the Tigers too!” 

Who chooses the backgrounds for these guys?  Is this take at their own home offices or at the studio?

Does Jeff Passan want us to think he's rough with his Rage Against the Machine CD in his bookshelf?  But also want us to think he loves the "great books series" he's got back there?  Who doesn't like to hit the mosh pit after spending the afternoon with the Great Gatsby or Oliver Twist?

Likewise, does Keith Law have the tough but worldy thing going on?  We must all recognize his brazen, non-shaven look, while also seeing his pictures of Paris and Rome in the background.  Well traveled indeed.

My favorite typical Keith Law tweet was when he was talking about Pixar movies and he said he couldn't watch Ratatouille because the accents were NOT Parisian.  He couldn't get over that the cartoon character didn't have the proper Parisian accent.  That sums up arrogant, condescending *** Keith Law in a nutshell.

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27 minutes ago, Buddha said:

Who chooses the backgrounds for these guys?  Is this take at their own home offices or at the studio?

Does Jeff Passan want us to think he's rough with his Rage Against the Machine CD in his bookshelf?  But also want us to think he loves the "great books series" he's got back there?  Who doesn't like to hit the mosh pit after spending the afternoon with the Great Gatsby or Oliver Twist?

Likewise, does Keith Law have the tough but worldy thing going on?  We must all recognize his brazen, non-shaven look, while also seeing his pictures of Paris and Rome in the background.  Well traveled indeed.

My favorite typical Keith Law tweet was when he was talking about Pixar movies and he said he couldn't watch Ratatouille because the accents were NOT Parisian.  He couldn't get over that the cartoon character didn't have the proper Parisian accent.  That sums up arrogant, condescending *** Keith Law in a nutshell.

I agree with Buddha.

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Buddha has changed since you were last here.  I don't even know him anymore.  

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26 minutes ago, One Man's Fool said:

I agree with Buddha.

And here I thought "the walking dead" was fiction...

Rising from the grave like Lazarus!

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17 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Buddha has changed since you were last here.  I don't even know him anymore.  

You still love me.

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3 minutes ago, Buddha said:

You still love me.

As much as I ever did.  

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Rogers, Griener, nor Hicks is anything to rely on going forward. Rogers is slated to be the starter when all is said and done if nothing else changes. Why not sign a Matt Weiters or Steven Vogt to a contract for the sake of helping Rogers and/or Greiner along. If they had some guy to lean on a bit at their stage of development it would be an investment for the future. To wait for one of these guys to just figure out on their own isn’t going to work out I don’t think. 

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