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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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On 3/26/2020 at 12:58 PM, Buddha said:

ya get a decade of good baseball and two world series and all you can do is ***** about the guy who put it together.  lol.

dave dombrowski is a good gm and does not suck.  we were lucky to have him.

Yeah.  I love how some Detroit fans are trying to pretend to feel sorry for Boston ?

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On 3/27/2020 at 9:02 PM, cruzer1 said:

That's your opinion.  He sold us out, without a championship. 

lolwut

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On 3/27/2020 at 9:02 PM, cruzer1 said:

That's your opinion.  He sold us out, without a championship. 

The father game them hundreds of dollars and the older brother drove them to the casino.  They just couldn't get the lucky dice rolls once they got there.    

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17 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Dombrowski owes everything to Ilitch.   If he didn't have him they wouldn't have signed Pudge or Ordonez.  Probably wouldn't have drafted Verlander cause of his bonus demands.  The only reason we got Cabrera was because Ilitch was willing to give him that massive extension, if he didn't have a deep pockets owner he wouldn't have gotten him.    Porcello woudln't have been here without Mike paying the big bonus demands for him.   

We obviously wouldn't have had Fielder, Hunter or V-Mart.   Mr. I also was willing to put out big bucks for Valverde and Benoit where most owners wouldn't have spent that much money on relievers so we wouldn't have had them without him either.     Castellanos was a bonus baby that we went way over slot for, without a deep pockets owner that wouldn't have happened.   

With that said, maybe Dombrowski still would've built a winning team without any of those acquisitions, but virtually every major player we got while he was here could be accredited to Ilitch willing to open up the wallet.   

It's a symbiotic relationship. Ilitch may have never built a good team without Dave. 

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18 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Dombrowski owes everything to Ilitch.   If he didn't have him they wouldn't have signed Pudge or Ordonez.  Probably wouldn't have drafted Verlander cause of his bonus demands.  The only reason we got Cabrera was because Ilitch was willing to give him that massive extension, if he didn't have a deep pockets owner he wouldn't have gotten him.    Porcello woudln't have been here without Mike paying the big bonus demands for him.   

We obviously wouldn't have had Fielder, Hunter or V-Mart.   Mr. I also was willing to put out big bucks for Valverde and Benoit where most owners wouldn't have spent that much money on relievers so we wouldn't have had them without him either.     Castellanos was a bonus baby that we went way over slot for, without a deep pockets owner that wouldn't have happened.   

With that said, maybe Dombrowski still would've built a winning team without any of those acquisitions, but virtually every major player we got while he was here could be accredited to Ilitch willing to open up the wallet.   

He did not "owe everything" to MI's wallet, that's a crock.  He was a shrewd evaluator of major league talent and knew how to make a deal, and he built a winning team **well before** the big spending started.  There is zero evidence that the 2014 extension of Cabrera had anything at all to do with DD's ability to trade for him in 2008, that's just ridiculous to assert that.  

They made it to the WS in 2006 because Ilitch and DD worked well as a team, drafting and acquiring good players with a solid above-average payroll but nothing huge like you are suggesting.  Even with Pudge and Ordonez the 2006 Tigers had a $82M team payroll, in the middle of the league, $15-20M less than #2 - #6 teams, and only $20M higher than the frugal Twins and A's in the low $60M range. 

They were a very good team in 2007 with basically the same cast + the absolute steal of Gary Sheffield for basically nobody, and who was having an all-universe season before he dove and hurt his leg mid-season.

After an unsuccessful run in 2008 - 09, which included a mysterious bloated contract for Dontrelle Willis, they re-tooled and made it back to the Playoffs in 2011 with a payroll that was still #10, but was about the same as model franchises St. Louis and Minnesota, and way less than the top 5 spenders which included the White Sox.

The payroll vaulted into the top 5 again after Hunter was signed (who was a very reasonable $13M spend for a 3 WAR player in 2013), but the driver of course was the Prince signing, a last-second necessity due to VMart's knee blowout in ST.  That was a huge spend and gamble, but it did payoff on-field despite the overspend in two strong post-season runs and a good trade for Ian Kinsler who did very well for a few years.

The extension to JV (2013) helped them in 2013 and 2014 to reach the playoffs. 

The contracts prior to 2014 (with the exception of Willis) served their purposes.  There is really no argument against that IMHO.

Then came 2014.....the 2014 contracts to Miggy and Vmart did not serve a winning purpose...however, the failure of those contracts (or others) to "work out" don't really serve your (off) point that DD *succeeded* only because of Ilitch's wallet.

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10 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

He was a shrewd evaluator of major league talent

with the notable exception of relief pitchers.

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3 hours ago, Yoda said:

It's a symbiotic relationship. Ilitch may have never built a good team without Dave. 

The line between symbiotic and co-dependent is...I imagine...pretty fine.

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19 hours ago, Lei Pong said:

The line between symbiotic and co-dependent is...I imagine...pretty fine.

Is there a line? One is just a nicer way of saying the other. 

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17 minutes ago, Yoda said:

Is there a line? One is just a nicer way of saying the other. 

I don't think they are really the same.  Codependent is a one sided dependency.  Symbiotic is two-sided and generally positive.    

sym·bi·ot·ic
/ˌsimbīˈädik/
 
adjective
BIOLOGY
 
  1. involving interaction between two different organisms living in close physical association.
    "the fungi form symbiotic associations with the roots of plant species"
    • denoting a mutually beneficial relationship between different people or groups.
      "the reader can have a symbiotic relationship with the writer"
       
      co·de·pend·ent
      /ˌkōdəˈpend(ə)nt/
       
      adjective
      adjective: co-dependent; adjective: codependent
      1. characterized by excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.
        "you go with her all the time because you're a little codependent"
         
      noun
      noun: co-dependent; plural noun: co-dependents; noun: codependent; plural noun: codependents
      1. a person with an excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.
        "codependents confuse caretaking and sacrifice with loyalty and love"

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3 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

It certainly isn't like the line between clever and stupid

Yes.  That's a 12-lane highway.

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5 hours ago, tiger337 said:

I don't think they are really the same.  Codependent is a one sided dependency.  Symbiotic is two-sided and generally positive.    

I took it to mean they were each co-dependent on each other, but I could be wrong. 

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An example of a 'stolen' word that can no longer be used for what it should most logically mean. 

Since "co-dependent" has taken on a strong psychological and negative denotation, I suppose when you want to say two things depend on each other in a purely logical sense without the psychological overlay you have to say 'mutually dependent'.

Symbiosis doesn't imply necessity - at least to me.

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Came across this on another site somewhere. Knew this but have forgotten it. Cool factoid.

 

“If not for an offseason trip to Hawaii, Babe Ruth may very well have become the Tigers manager. After the 1933 season saw Ruth "slump" to 34 home runs with Detroit finishing 5th in the American League, Tigers owner Frank Navin wanted a new skipper. Knowing that Ruth was interested in becoming a player-manager, the owner reached out to Babe. Only problem: Ruth was set to travel to Hawaii for a series of exhibition games and a golf tournament.

After Ruth didn't give Navin an immediate answer -- and stated his desire for a hefty salary and a cut of ticket sales -- Navin moved on to his second choice: Mickey Cochrane.”

 

Things definitely worked out for the best.

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On 3/30/2020 at 8:55 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

An example of a 'stolen' word that can no longer be used for what it should most logically mean. 

Since "co-dependent" has taken on a strong psychological and negative denotation, I suppose when you want to say two things depend on each other in a purely logical sense without the psychological overlay you have to say 'mutually dependent'.

Symbiosis doesn't imply necessity - at least to me.

I suppose one could argue that if one is co-dependent and their partner still stays with them, then they are both dependent on one another.  It's still a negative term whereas symbiotic is positive by definition.  

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Are they really considering December baseball?

 

Look, I like baseball as much as the next guy, could players really play balls out all the way to December, then be expected to come back in mid-February to prepare for another full season?

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47 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

symbiotic is positive by definition

right - if a symbiosis was not mutually beneficial it would be parasitic - which - as demonstrated, we have a good word for.  :D

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22 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Are they really considering December baseball?

 

Look, I like baseball as much as the next guy, could players really play balls out all the way to December, then be expected to come back in mid-February to prepare for another full season?

The Latin players play all winter.  So, why not !?!

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1 hour ago, 1776 said:

Came across this on another site somewhere. Knew this but have forgotten it. Cool factoid.

 

“If not for an offseason trip to Hawaii, Babe Ruth may very well have become the Tigers manager. After the 1933 season saw Ruth "slump" to 34 home runs with Detroit finishing 5th in the American League, Tigers owner Frank Navin wanted a new skipper. Knowing that Ruth was interested in becoming a player-manager, the owner reached out to Babe. Only problem: Ruth was set to travel to Hawaii for a series of exhibition games and a golf tournament.

After Ruth didn't give Navin an immediate answer -- and stated his desire for a hefty salary and a cut of ticket sales -- Navin moved on to his second choice: Mickey Cochrane.”

 

Things definitely worked out for the best.

It is my belief that Mickey Cochrane is the most underrated Tigers player of all time.  Yes, he is in the Hall of Fame, but as a member of the Philadelphia Athletics.  He is the primary reasons the Tigers became relevant again.  He got the Tigers to the World Series again as a manager after a 25 year absence and won MVP in 1934.  Then the Tigers won the whole thing the following year, again with Cochrane as skipper.  Yet he hardly gets an accolades.  He doesn't have a statue, no number retirement, not even a part of the ballpark named after him.  And most of the time gets overlooked as a great Tigers player/manager, often getting overshadowed by Bill Freehan and Lance Parrish at catcher and Sparky Anderson and Jim Leyland as manager.  For someone who won the Tigers their first World Series ever and the first MVP award since Ty Cobb, he doesn't get mentioned nearly as often as he should.    

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30 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Are they really considering December baseball?

 

Look, I like baseball as much as the next guy, could players really play balls out all the way to December, then be expected to come back in mid-February to prepare for another full season?

It's beginning to Look a lot like baseball, everywhere you go. 

Take a look at the field and stands, it's doing the wave once again.

With strikeouts and errors that they over throw. 

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22 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

The Latin players play all winter.  So, why not !?!

I don't know, maybe. Isn't it only the guys who are still paying their dues are playing winter ball for the most part? They'll do whatever it takes to get a major league regular job.

We have seen where ring winners struggle the following season because they played so deep into October or November. I admit that's anecdotal, though.

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

I don't know, maybe. Isn't it only the guys who are still paying their dues are playing winter ball for the most part? They'll do whatever it takes to get a major league regular job.

We have seen where ring winners struggle the following season because they played so deep into October or November. I admit that's anecdotal, though.

I think the problem with players playing deep into the playoffs struggling the following season has more to do with too many innings rather than too short of a recovery period.   That wouldn't be a problem with this year's short season.

one thing they could do is expand rosters at the beginning of 2021 to ease players into the rigor a new season on short rest.

At any rate, the players know best about this issue and none of this will happen without the player's approval

 

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

Are they really considering December baseball?

 

Look, I like baseball as much as the next guy, could players really play balls out all the way to December, then be expected to come back in mid-February to prepare for another full season?

they really havent come to grips yet with how much money this is going to cost them.

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2 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

It is my belief that Mickey Cochrane is the most underrated Tigers player of all time.  Yes, he is in the Hall of Fame, but as a member of the Philadelphia Athletics.  He is the primary reasons the Tigers became relevant again.

I do not think Mickey Cochrane was the primary reason the Tigers became relevant.

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24 minutes ago, Buddha said:

they really havent come to grips yet with how much money this is going to cost them.

Sounds like they are at stage 4

Bad, News, and Depression: Stages of Grief and Transition:  Sidelined Athletes  Shock  Denial  Anger  Bargaining  Depression  Testing  Acceptance  Initial paralysis at hearing the bad news  Trying to avoid the inevitable  Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion  Seeking in vain for a way out  The reality of the inevitable sinks in  Seeking a new passion or challenge  Finding a meaningful way forward  This model is a blending of the Kubler-Ross Model of Grief and  Lewis and Parker's Seven Stages of Transitional Change. Where are you guys at? I think I'm fully in depression now.

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