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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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34 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

I don't like the idea of batting the worst hitter 2nd when statistically that spot should be given to the best hitter.  

I'd like to see:

SS Goodrum

2B Schoop

1B Cron

DH Miggy

RF Maybin

CF Jones

C Romine

LF Stewart

3B Candelario

 

It depends on your definition of a hitter, I suppose.  I think Candelario is capable of a .340-.360 OBP, with some pop, that I like at the top of the order.  If he can’t muster that, I suspect he will be replaced period, so it won’t matter his lineup spot. Stewart also needs to move up in your lineup for similar reasons.

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1 minute ago, Tenacious D said:

It depends on your definition of a hitter, I suppose.  I think Candelario is capable of a .340-.360 OBP, with some pop, that I like at the top of the order.  If he can’t muster that, I suspect he will be replaced period, so it won’t matter his lineup spot. Stewart also needs to move up in your lineup for similar reasons.

Well, I based my lineup on actual results, not what I hope they will do.  I'm flexible though. If Stewart shows improvement, he should hit higher. But he has to earn it.  

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I think I'd go.

Maybin

Miggy

Cron

Schoup

Stewart

Goodrum

Candy

Jones

Romine

I think Maybin and Miggy are our two best on base guys with Cron, Schoop and Stewart being the top power guys.   I also think Jones has some pop too so I like him to be at the bottom of the order to add some power to it.  

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From today’s WSJ if anyone is interested. That this cheating issue is not going away is a good thing.

 

By 

Jonathan Vaughters

Feb. 14, 2020 7:00 am ET

The author of this open letter to baseball is Jonathan Vaughters, a former professional cyclist on teams including the United States Postal Service with Lance Armstrong, who admitted to doping in 2012. The co-founder and manager of the EF Pro Cycling team, he is a leading anti-doping advocate and the author of the 2019 book “One Way Ticket: Nine Lives on Two Wheels.”

From: Professional Cycling 
Paris, France

To: Major League Baseball 
New York, New York

Dear Baseball,

Greetings from across the Atlantic! I’ve heard you’re killing it as America’s pastime. That’s great. So proud of you.

It’s been a while since we’ve chatted, but in reading the news, I can see you’re in trouble. I think I can help. 

You’ve run into the same damned problem I have on a few occasions...cheating. And it’s the worst kind. The kind that surfaces after it’s been in play a few years. The kind that warrants more than your run-of-the-mill six-game suspension.

Cheating caught after the fact is a nasty mess. I learned with the Tour de France that it’s pretty tough to go back and change the results years after the fact. I mean, if the Astros didn’t really win the World series, who did? Wasn’t everyone else doing the same thing, anyways? People are pointing fingers at the Astros now, but in my experience, these problems generally run much deeper than surface level. 

We’ll never know the real winner of the World Series. It’s sad—it robs people of their trust in the game and makes a mockery of the hours spent watching, cheering, hoping.

But from pro cycling to baseball, from me to you, here’s a hard-learned lesson. It’s not going to be what you want to hear, Baseball. But it’s the best advice I can give you. 

Tell the truth. I did a miserable job at this for years. Loyalties among athletes and coaches were strong, and everyone thought they would be disloyal to their team, their friends, and even to their sport if they told the truth. And I mean the whole truth. It’s a damned hard thing to tell the world what really happened when those responsible are lifelong friends and you feel like you’re drowning the sport you’ve always loved.

I know what you’ll say: “What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.” This was a secret that was never to be spoken about. Banging on trash cans means nothing. They can’t prove a thing. Oh, baseball, I’ve heard all this before. With this attitude, it won’t end well for you.

It’s tough, I get it. You’re blood brothers in sporting combat. You were just doing what we needed to do to win. By snitching out your team, your friends, your sport, what will that help? Nah, better not. It’ll just hurt. A lot. And you don’t have time for that. 

But you have to trust me: The truth will do less damage than what you’d inflict by covering things up. Take it from me. That kind of hurt never goes away.

Because when you try to keep the cheating under wraps, you will fail. It will boil. You’ll tell yourself everyone will stay quiet, but it will leak out, bit by bit. Ever slowly pulled a Band-Aid off your arm? Yeah. That kind of pain.

The fans? Ugh, the poor fans. They will lose their remaining trust in you. They will stop showing up to watch, because they won’t know who the real winners are anymore. You’ll think they’re being unfair. You’ll say, but everyone was doing it! We were just the ones who got caught! We won fair and square! 

Keep telling yourself that, Baseball. 

I know, because I thought exactly the same thing. That keeping the cheating between just us bros was the right thing to do. I thought the media had no business asking hard questions. I thought, no one would spill the beans, that we were in it together. And I was dead wrong.

I lied and lied...and lied. Instead of opting for brutal honesty, I turned it into decades-long slow bleeding of faith in my sport. By the end, no one believed anything I said. And even though I finally did get to the other side, everyone will always second-guess me. It takes a lifetime to build trust and minutes to destroy it. The truth came out anyway, no matter what I did, or what lies I told myself or those around me. 

So just lay it out there. Don’t leave out any details. Your fans will hate you, your teammates will call you names, and plenty of people will say you’re a lying sack of you-know-what. 

But it’s the only way. I wish I knew this earlier. Apologies that don’t tell the truth, and penalties that skim the surface, are like taking a painkiller for a compound fracture: the pain goes away for a short time, but it always—always—comes back. 

But your fans won’t hate you forever. Rip off the Band-Aid quickly and start to rebuild that trust. The more you spill, the more believable you will be. Give it some time, and families will hurry back to the bleachers on sun-drenched summer afternoons. Eventually, they will believe in you again. 

There is nothing more American than a comeback story, but you have to burn it all down before you rebuild. Baseball, you can be the next great American comeback story. Just like that guy who had cancer and then won the Tour de France.

Jonathan Vaughters 
CEO, EF Education First Pro Cycling

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Sounds like he's praising Lance Armstrong.....................after admitting cheating was bad.   That leaves me confused.   

If the wire-wearing thing could be proven  - ban those players (and the players or coaches who sent them signals) for life.   

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8 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

Well you experienced a different Dunedin than me 

only a novice knows that you never masturbate in public in Dunedin. never

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12 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

Well, I based my lineup on actual results, not what I hope they will do.

Oooh, I wanna play you in OOTP.

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2 hours ago, chasfh said:

How many days until the first Detroit Tigers exhibition game?

1169006028.jpeg&c=sc&w=736&h=485

7

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Let's assume that Altuve is good enough to get strong consideration for the Hall of Fame.  Do you not vote for him because we are keeping steroid cheaters out?  Is what Altuve did not as bad or worse than steroid cheaters?  

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We are all entitled to our own opinions.

 

My opinion about the the Houston Astro controversy is but one of millions ..and basically ..important only to the extent that it affects my own thought process. 

If the Tigers had won a World Championship under exact same circumstances ..I would be embarrassed to be a Tiger fan.   With that in mind ..I have a hunch that many Houston Astro fans feel similarly with their team and players.

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Vaughters alluded to that earlier - cycling fans had a hard time coming back from 20 years of cheating, and what he didn't mention is that millions of dollars of sponsorship money went up in smoke.

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1 hour ago, bobrob2004 said:

Let's assume that Altuve is good enough to get strong consideration for the Hall of Fame.  Do you not vote for him because we are keeping steroid cheaters out?  Is what Altuve did not as bad or worse than steroid cheaters?  

I could not vote for a guy that deliberately cheated the fans, the game, and their opponents, into the HOF. It can be credibly argued that the 2017 WS is bogus. Think about that and think about the total lack of concern these players had regarding their actions. Talk about a total disrespect for the game! 

I’ve read that the Oakland A’s, while all this cheating was going on, made two official contacts with MLB expressing concern that Houston was involved in what has since come to light. In neither case did MLB investigate. That had to be costly for Oakland as they play in the same division as Houston. 

My opinion has nothing to do with the steroid issues. 

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11 hours ago, 1776 said:

I could not vote for a guy that deliberately cheated the fans, the game, and their opponents, into the HOF. It can be credibly argued that the 2017 WS is bogus. Think about that and think about the total lack of concern these players had regarding their actions. Talk about a total disrespect for the game! 

I’ve read that the Oakland A’s, while all this cheating was going on, made two official contacts with MLB expressing concern that Houston was involved in what has since come to light. In neither case did MLB investigate. That had to be costly for Oakland as they play in the same division as Houston. 

My opinion has nothing to do with the steroid issues. 

Man, you're talking about a LOT of Hall of Famers there.

You wouldn't have voted for Hank Greenberg?  

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18 hours ago, 1776 said:

I could not vote for a guy that deliberately cheated the fans, the game, and their opponents, into the HOF. It can be credibly argued that the 2017 WS is bogus. Think about that and think about the total lack of concern these players had regarding their actions. Talk about a total disrespect for the game! 

I’ve read that the Oakland A’s, while all this cheating was going on, made two official contacts with MLB expressing concern that Houston was involved in what has since come to light. In neither case did MLB investigate. That had to be costly for Oakland as they play in the same division as Houston. 

My opinion has nothing to do with the steroid issues. 

I was going to respond to bobrob2004 about his comment about Altuve, and you make a good point here that helps support that point.

Someone could fairly withhold their vote for Altuve (or Bregman, if it comes to that) because they played on a team that used extraordinary technology to steal signs, versus than merely decoding them organically. I think that would be just as defensible as not voting for a (presumed) steroid user.

But remember that while 'roiding up is a personal choice that individual players make, irrespective of the level of peer pressure or career pressure to do so, the kind of cheating the Astros engaged in was a system-wide scheme that emanated from the very top. It was sanctioned by the owner through a win-at-all-costs mandate; devised in the front office and given its own clandestine code name; and filtered down to the players for in-game deployment using resources provided by the team for that very purpose. (The only open question I have is whether AJ Hinch and the coaching staff were involved. MLB media, led by Tom Verducci, is eager to portray Hinch as an unwitting stooge ignorant of, if not the existence of the scheme altogether, than at least of the plan and the processes put into place to implement it. I'm not sure I buy his innocence because that idea is not really passing the smell test for me. My money is on "Hinch was in on it.") And just as importantly, when Baseball itself was informed about this system that was known to be in place, they flatly ignored it in order to protect what they perceived as their fans' perception of the game, so the game could maintain its uninterrupted flow of revenue, free of apparent scandal.

To characterize Altuve as THE Bad Guy, in the way Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are THE Bad Guys of the Steroid Era, is giving short shrift to the scope of the problem and the depth to which it has corrupted the MLB game. Sure, it's pretty clear that Altuve had fully bought into the scheme and was an eager participant, and we might say the same about Alex Bregman, if for no other reason based on the unsatisfying jumbled public statements they were required to make as the acknowledged team leaders. But in the same way that thousands of guys at the major and minor league levels used while we blame Bonds and Clemens for being the face of all of it, we are running the risk of having an entire organization—or more likely organizations—escape scrutiny for engaging in this beyond-the-pale chicanery while Jose Altuve takes the brunt of the blame for all of it.

I guess it just goes to that old saying: the higher up the tree you go, the bigger a target your *** becomes.

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If it can ever be proven that Altuve, and others, used buzzers attached to their bodies, even more **** will the fan and further taint any of the players who participated.

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