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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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16 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

true, in the abstract you can make a reasonable case either way. Must pitchers lose Velo through an accumulation of arm injuries, JV has been extraordinarily lucky in not suffering arm injuries through his career - in that way he has been like Ryan. But that would mean that like Ryan he must be an extreme genetic outlier - which is certainly possible. From the statistical standpoint - it's a much more probable argument to say he has been juicing. Even his protestations about other people cheating don't mean that much - look at Lance Armstrong. 

Verlander did have arm troubles in 2014-15 and it did result in loss of velocity.  Some people believed it was the start of his decline.  Then he recovered, regained his velocity and dominance.

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5 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

Aren't they both the same thing?  

I don't believe they are. Criminal convictions can be obtained based on circumstantial evidence, although it must be adequate to meet established standards of proof.

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46 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i do not think it makes it evident that he is using.  i think its merely a suspicion on some people's parts given the history of the game and verlander's career arc.

i mean, do you think jeff bagwell was using peds?  or pudge rodriguez?  i do.  but there's no evidence that they were.

and, for the record, i dont care if they were or not.  although i really really really hope verlander isnt because he's my favorite player of all time (non trammell division).

I get that argument on the surface but I think it's easily refuted.  I'm not saying you are making that argument, I get what you are doing, but I still want to make the point...  Just look at Verlander's history, his injury, the "misdiagnosis", the recovery from that... He was down for a few years but that can be tied to a specific thing.  He rebounded in late 2015 and in 2016 should have won the Cy Young.  And you can make the case that by going to Houston and being exposed to greater analytics staff was able to improve more.

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9 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

Verlander did have arm troubles in 2014-15 and it did result in loss of velocity.  Some people believed it was the start of his decline.  Then he recovered, regained his velocity and dominance.

It gets a bit muddled also because it's not always clear with abdominal injury if the  loss of velo is because of the arm or the leg drive.

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Quote

The Tigers have not used sign-stealing technology for their hitters in recent seasons, general manager Al Avila said.

Tigers GM Al Avila: "We still might sign another outfielder. I'm not saying we will, but it's a possibility."

Miguel Cabrera is an excused absence from this week's caravan. Al Avila said he's attending his son's youth baseball tournament.
 
 

 

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There is a “possibility” the Tigers sign an outfielder, Avila said. Yasiel Puig “isn’t a priority,” Avila said.

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11 minutes ago, kdog said:

Miguel Cabrera is an excused absence from this week's caravan

Of course he is. 

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If Verlander has done peds it just means he was willing to sacrifice his testicles for us, even while dating Kate Upton. 

Can anyone think of a more selfless act? 

  • Haha 1

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1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

true, in the abstract you can make a reasonable case either way. Must pitchers lose Velo through an accumulation of arm injuries, JV has been extraordinarily lucky in not suffering arm injuries through his career - in that way he has been like Ryan. But that would mean that like Ryan he must be an extreme genetic outlier - which is certainly possible. From the statistical standpoint - it's a much more probable argument to say he has been juicing. Even his protestations about other people cheating don't mean that much - look at Lance Armstrong. 

true, but with lance armstrong there was a mountain if evidence that he was doping all along, including failed tests and another rider saying he did it with him.  nothing like that for verlander.

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6 minutes ago, pyrotigers said:

If Verlander has done peds it just means he was willing to sacrifice his testicles for us, even while dating Kate Upton. 

Can anyone think of a more selfless act? 

👍

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49 minutes ago, Oblong said:

I get that argument on the surface but I think it's easily refuted.  I'm not saying you are making that argument, I get what you are doing, but I still want to make the point...  Just look at Verlander's history, his injury, the "misdiagnosis", the recovery from that... He was down for a few years but that can be tied to a specific thing.  He rebounded in late 2015 and in 2016 should have won the Cy Young.  And you can make the case that by going to Houston and being exposed to greater analytics staff was able to improve more.

but he's not only come back to what he was before, he has SURPASSED what he was in his prime.  that's what is suspicious.  that he's better at 35 than he was in his late 20s.

compare him to clemens.  its similar.  clemens was thought to be in a serious decline at age 32-33.  then at 34 he's the best pitcher in baseball again and doing better than ever in his career.

with clemens he got even BETTER in his 40s.  we'll see if verlander has the same type of career.

again, nothing but suspicions.  unfortunately thats what the steroid era has done.  that said, it would not shock me if verlander were on something.

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4 minutes ago, Buddha said:

true, but with lance armstrong there was a mountain if evidence that he was doping all along, including failed tests and another rider saying he did it with him.  nothing like that for verlander.

I didn't mean when he ultimately got caught - I meant during all the years before when he was one of the most strident anti-doping voices. I just meant that it is a common human behavior to protest hard in public against something you are doing in private - whether that is a form of psychological denial or just an explicit deflection strategy. Thus public opposition may or may not ever mean anything.

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51 minutes ago, kdog said:

The Tigers have not used sign-stealing technology for their hitters in recent seasons, general manager Al Avila said.

Well, that settles that.

 

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17 minutes ago, Buddha said:

but he's not only come back to what he was before, he has SURPASSED what he was in his prime.  that's what is suspicious.  that he's better at 35 than he was in his late 20s.

compare him to clemens.  its similar.  clemens was thought to be in a serious decline at age 32-33.  then at 34 he's the best pitcher in baseball again and doing better than ever in his career.

with clemens he got even BETTER in his 40s.  we'll see if verlander has the same type of career.

again, nothing but suspicions.  unfortunately thats what the steroid era has done.  that said, it would not shock me if verlander were on something.

I get it.  Same with Bonds.  But in all 3 cases we are talking about great players.  Maybe Bonds and Clemens would still have been 90% of what they became without PED.    It wouldn't shock me about JV if he used something but I'd say that about any player.   

I don't think we're far apart if at all here.  

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21 minutes ago, Buddha said:

but he's not only come back to what he was before, he has SURPASSED what he was in his prime.  that's what is suspicious.  that he's better at 35 than he was in his late 20s.

So was Hank Aaron.

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33 minutes ago, Buddha said:

again, nothing but suspicions.  unfortunately thats what the steroid era has done.  that said, it would not shock me if verlander were on something.

That's what the sign-stealing scandal will do as well, I think. We'll be looking at great teams, or teams that have dominated for a long time such as the current Dodgers or the Braves of the late 1990s and 2000s, and wondering, did benefit from technological cheating as well? Some people here will say, no, I don't think so, or no, there's no evidence to support that, or something along those lines. And that's fine, everyone is free to conclude what they want about it. But I believe a lot of fans will begin to wonder, when they hadn't even thought about it before.

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3 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

Do we have to use Jennifer Aniston and Lisa Kudrow?  Can we use ladies closer to my age, like Selena Gomez and Jennifer Lawrence?

Helen Mirren.

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So, if the Tigers have not used sign stealing technology in recent years, does that mean they used it in previous years?  They may be further ahead of the curve than we think.  

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2 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Was he?

If you believe in wRC+, he was.

He was even better at 37.

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I look at it and see season to season variation paired with almost no to no degradation due to age.

I don't know as that I'd say he was better.  The differences are really small.

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18 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

So, if the Tigers have not used sign stealing technology in recent years, does that mean they used it in previous years?  They may be further ahead of the curve than we think.  

It was the right way to state it. The team history is a lot longer than his history with the team.

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