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2019-2020 OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

This is completely random and probably should go in the collectors forum but since nobody goes there I'd just figure I'd make a post here.  Anyway I was on youtube and I came across Phil Hughes' youtube channel.  He's a big card collector.  I don't even collect cards anymore but I've been watching his videos and I just find it entertaining, here's this professional baseball player that has made almost a 100 million dollars still getting excited about pulling some card thats worth like a 100 bucks.   Anyway for anybody interested the channel is called "Phil's pulls".  

Thanks, I will check that out. I like to watch videos of folks opening certified unopened packs from decades ago, and there is a guy who tapes his many trips to flea markets in search of card treasures

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39 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Of the 12,676 non-pitchers who've played big league ball, 860 of them had 12 career WAR or better within their first six years. The list of players who achieved exactly 12 after six years includes Aurelio Rodriguez, Trot Nixon, Mike Scioscia, and Baseball Bill Russell. If Daz Cameron matched or exceeded that, it would put him in at least the 93rd percentile of all players in big league history.

I would definitely take that as a consolation prize for that trade.

Actually Aurelio is about the kind of comp I'm thinking of. I don't think you could have traded Aurelio for a #1 starter at any point in his career - in fact it took an Aurelio plus Brinkman to land a pitcher that had once been a number one but was down to being a pure rehab project play. I suppose you could argue that JV was too old to have any certainty either - but the fact was that he still had 97 and 3000 rpm, which were pretty good evidence he still had a good bit of arm left.

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1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

This is completely random and probably should go in the collectors forum but since nobody goes there I'd just figure I'd make a post here.  Anyway I was on youtube and I came across Phil Hughes' youtube channel.  He's a big card collector.  I don't even collect cards anymore but I've been watching his videos and I just find it entertaining, here's this professional baseball player that has made almost a 100 million dollars still getting excited about pulling some card thats worth like a 100 bucks.   Anyway for anybody interested the channel is called "Phil's pulls".  

Hey Randy .. thanks for the info. 

You are probably correct that your info should be in the Collectors forum .. because no doubt it will very quickly get totally lost here in this thread so that within just a couple day no collector will ever read it.  Thus, you might seriously consider adding it to th "Collectors" forum.

As for pulling valuable cards from packs .. .. ..surely if they print and package them .. .. then somebody will be 'pulling' them.  The big difference is that the ones with the most money will be able to buy the most packs/boxes/cases of cards.  

 

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1 hour ago, Tigrrfan said:

Hey Randy .. thanks for the info. 

You are probably correct that your info should be in the Collectors forum .. because no doubt it will very quickly get totally lost here in this thread so that within just a couple day no collector will ever read it.  Thus, you might seriously consider adding it to th "Collectors" forum.

As for pulling valuable cards from packs .. .. ..surely if they print and package them .. .. then somebody will be 'pulling' them.  The big difference is that the ones with the most money will be able to buy the most packs/boxes/cases of cards.  

 

Had no idea there is a collector's forum. Thanks for the heads up. I'm a total geek collector

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MLB vs MiLB getting ugly fast! From the MLB website today:

The war between Major League Baseball and Minor League Baseball escalated significantly last night, with Minor League Baseball releasing a memo accusing Major League Baseball of “repeatedly and inaccurately” describing the former’s stance in negotiations and Major League Baseball responding by threatening to cut ties with Minor League Baseball entirely.

As you’re no doubt aware, negotiations of the next 10-year Professional Baseball Agreement, which governs the relationship between the big leagues and the minors — and which is set to expire following the 2020 season — have turned acrimonious. Whereas past negotiations have been quick and uncontroversial, this time Major League Baseball presented Minor League Baseball with a plan to essentially contract 42 minor league baseball teams by eliminating their major league affiliation. Baseball is also demanding that Minor League Baseball undertake far more of the financial burden of player development which is normally the responsibility of the majors.

That plan became public in October when Baseball America reported on the contraction scheme, after which elected officials such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren began weighing in on the side of Minor League Baseball. Rob Manfred and Major League Baseball were not happy with all of that and, on Wednesday, Manfred bashed Minor League Baseball for taking the negotiations public and accused Minor League Baseball of intransigence, saying the minors had assumed a “take it or leave it” negotiating stance.

Last night Minor League Baseball bashed back in the form of a four-page public memo countering Manfred’s claims, with point-point-by-point rebuttals of Major League Baseball’s talking points on various matters ranging from stadium facilities, team travel, and player health and welfare. You can read the memo in this Twitter thread from Josh Norris of Baseball America.

Major League Baseball responded with its own public statement last night. But rather than publicly rebut Minor League Baseball’s claims, or to simply say, consistent with Manfred’s statement on Wednesday, that it preferred to negotiate in private, it threatened to simply drop any agreement with Minor League Baseball and, presumably start its own minor league system bypassing MiLB entirely:

“If the National Association [of Minor League Clubs] has an interest in an agreement with Major League Baseball, it must address the very significant issues with the current system at the bargaining table. Otherwise, MLB clubs will be free to affiliate with any minor league team or potential team in the United States, including independent league teams and cities which are not permitted to compete for an affiliate under the current agreement.”

So, in the space of about 48 hours, Manfred has gone from being angry at the existence of public negotiations to negotiating in public, angrily.

As for Minor League Baseball going public itself, one Minor League Baseball owner’s comments to the Los Angeles Timesseems to sum up the thinking pretty well:

“Rob is attempting to decimate the industry, destroy baseball in communities and eliminate thousands of jobs, and he’s upset that the owners of the teams have gone public with that information in an effort to save their teams. That’s rich.”

Things, it seems, are going to get far worse before they get better. If, in fact, they do get better.

Follow @craigcalcaterra

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46 minutes ago, 1776 said:

MLB vs MiLB getting ugly fast! From the MLB website today:

The war between Major League Baseball and Minor League Baseball escalated significantly last night, with Minor League Baseball releasing a memo accusing Major League Baseball of “repeatedly and inaccurately” describing the former’s stance in negotiations and Major League Baseball responding by threatening to cut ties with Minor League Baseball entirely.

As you’re no doubt aware, negotiations of the next 10-year Professional Baseball Agreement, which governs the relationship between the big leagues and the minors — and which is set to expire following the 2020 season — have turned acrimonious. Whereas past negotiations have been quick and uncontroversial, this time Major League Baseball presented Minor League Baseball with a plan to essentially contract 42 minor league baseball teams by eliminating their major league affiliation. Baseball is also demanding that Minor League Baseball undertake far more of the financial burden of player development which is normally the responsibility of the majors.

That plan became public in October when Baseball America reported on the contraction scheme, after which elected officials such as Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren began weighing in on the side of Minor League Baseball. Rob Manfred and Major League Baseball were not happy with all of that and, on Wednesday, Manfred bashed Minor League Baseball for taking the negotiations public and accused Minor League Baseball of intransigence, saying the minors had assumed a “take it or leave it” negotiating stance.

Last night Minor League Baseball bashed back in the form of a four-page public memo countering Manfred’s claims, with point-point-by-point rebuttals of Major League Baseball’s talking points on various matters ranging from stadium facilities, team travel, and player health and welfare. You can read the memo in this Twitter thread from Josh Norris of Baseball America.

Major League Baseball responded with its own public statement last night. But rather than publicly rebut Minor League Baseball’s claims, or to simply say, consistent with Manfred’s statement on Wednesday, that it preferred to negotiate in private, it threatened to simply drop any agreement with Minor League Baseball and, presumably start its own minor league system bypassing MiLB entirely:

“If the National Association [of Minor League Clubs] has an interest in an agreement with Major League Baseball, it must address the very significant issues with the current system at the bargaining table. Otherwise, MLB clubs will be free to affiliate with any minor league team or potential team in the United States, including independent league teams and cities which are not permitted to compete for an affiliate under the current agreement.”

So, in the space of about 48 hours, Manfred has gone from being angry at the existence of public negotiations to negotiating in public, angrily.

As for Minor League Baseball going public itself, one Minor League Baseball owner’s comments to the Los Angeles Timesseems to sum up the thinking pretty well:

“Rob is attempting to decimate the industry, destroy baseball in communities and eliminate thousands of jobs, and he’s upset that the owners of the teams have gone public with that information in an effort to save their teams. That’s rich.”

Things, it seems, are going to get far worse before they get better. If, in fact, they do get better.

Follow @craigcalcaterra

Thank you for posting this. I’m trying to limit my time in the alternate reality of social media and news and this is something I might not have run across otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

Minor league baseball needs to get their house in order. MLB doesn’t need them. 

I would appreciate you citing specific examples of where and how MiLB’s house is out of order. 

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5 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I would appreciate you citing specific examples of where and how MiLB is out of order. 

Acting like MLB owes them something. 

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1 hour ago, Shelton said:

Minor league baseball needs to get their house in order. MLB doesn’t need them. 

That's not entirely true.  They don't need them from a developmental standpoint, but cutting 42 teams across the country is not good marketing for a sport which is slowly losing popularity already.  

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3 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

That's not entirely true.  They don't need them from a developmental standpoint, but cutting 42 teams across the country is not good marketing for a sport which is slowly losing popularity already.  

Small potatoes. 

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12 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

I hope they don't kill the goose  

As long as they televise the execution, it will be fine. 

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51 minutes ago, Shelton said:

As long as they televise the execution, it will be fine. 

Probably true.  It will be four and a half hours, with lots of juice but little real action and lots of commercials.  

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6 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Probably true.  It will be four and a half hours, with lots of juice but little real action and lots of commercials.  

Yeah. But at least the beer tastes better and costs less. 

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This is a classic conflict between different fractions of one investor class. But there’s more to it than that. There are two machines, MLB and MiLB, and both need fuel (revenue) to keep their machines running. In the end, regardless of TV revenue etc. fan interest generates revenue and when that interest wanes — which is happening — the fuel becomes scarce.

Historically, the special élan of baseball has been a wide ranging enculturation of which MiLB is a vital part. The soulless corporatism of the game is constantly trivializing it into just being another entertainment option. It makes it almost as stupid as rollerball. 

I think MLB has to find a way to work with MiLB on this and to recognize the cultural stakes of fan interest and not merely see it as a flow of capital and instrumental efficiency issue.  

I’m more of a Ken Burns romantic type of guy than a hedge fund type of guy, but in the end I think decimating MiLB is both financially short-sighted as well as culturally sacrilegious. These two machines need to find some way to get on a similar page.

it’s always been a corporate thing but it’s also been more than that. When you get rid of the “more than that“ thing there’s nothing special about it which makes it literally worth less.

 

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On 12/13/2019 at 1:12 PM, kdog said:

Marian is technically the owner right now. So when she is no longer around.

The discussion in this thread has done a good job of  discussing the issues. I edited my comments to bring them in line with other comments. I responded without reading the whole discussion. I will go stand in the corner for 20 minutes as my punishment to ponder my egregious errors.

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This is an excerpt from a Crain's article which is behind the paywall at Crain's.

Quote

Mike Illitch, who bought the team for $85 million in 1992, died Feb. 10 at age 87.  Because his widow, Marian Illitch, owns MotorCity Casino Hotel, she is prohibited from inheriting the Tigers under Major League Baseball's rule that forbids team owners from having any stake in gambling operations.

As part of the estate and succession planning, the Tigers at some point were put into a trust, and Christopher Illitch, the son of Mike and Marian, became the de feacto owner and chief executive of the Tigers upon his father's death.  He ultimately will decide the direction of the franchise.

The actual owner of the team is the trust, however, and such trusts offer a way around MLB's gambling rules.

The Illitch family issued a succession-planning statement in May 2016 that confirmed Chris Illitch would continue to oversee their holdings, but it didn't reveal specifics of ownership structures.

Click here to read the full article from Crain's Detroit Business.

FWIW - having been a party to a family trust (sadly, one about a billion times smaller than the Ilitch's!) my understanding is that one can go at least as long as the life of the primary trustee, which in this case appears to be Chris Ilitch based on his listing by MLB as 'Owner'.

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6 hours ago, tiger337 said:

That's not entirely true.  They don't need them from a developmental standpoint, but cutting 42 teams across the country is not good marketing for a sport which is slowly losing popularity already.  

the existence of a lot of minor league teams in tiny towns has 0% to do with the popularity of baseball.  baseball's popularity has been decreasing steadily over the years and the amount of minor league teams has remained static.  the attendance in minor league games is miniscule, the tv ratings are non-existant.

baseball popularity will be increased by speeding up the game, not by whether or not erie pennsylvania has a team.  the future of baseball is in big city markets and internationally, not in rural dying america.

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2 minutes ago, Buddha said:

the existence of a lot of minor league teams in tiny towns has 0% to do with the popularity of baseball.  baseball's popularity has been decreasing steadily over the years and the amount of minor league teams has remained static.  the attendance in minor league games is miniscule, the tv ratings are non-existant.

baseball popularity will be increased by speeding up the game, not by whether or not erie pennsylvania has a team.  the future of baseball is in big city markets and internationally, not in rural dying america.

I wouldn't disagree with anything in the 1st paragraph. I think the 2nd is incorrect however. I think baseball's future is tied to young people playing it much more than the excitement value of the game as telecast from the field. Baseball has never been able to compete with other sports as pure visual entertainment - I think it is a fool's errand if the league thinks that is more than a minor part of their problem. Yes 2:30 is better than 3:10 and they need to take away velcro batting gloves, but in truth the average length of game is only up ~15 minutes in the last 30 yrs (though last year was kind of an outlier up a full 6 min from the year before). The two hour ball game is a bit of a myth in our lifetimes. The average was already ~2:30 in the '60's

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/misc.shtml

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4 hours ago, Buddha said:

the existence of a lot of minor league teams in tiny towns has 0% to do with the popularity of baseball.  baseball's popularity has been decreasing steadily over the years and the amount of minor league teams has remained static.  the attendance in minor league games is miniscule, the tv ratings are non-existant.

baseball popularity will be increased by speeding up the game, not by whether or not erie pennsylvania has a team.  the future of baseball is in big city markets and internationally, not in rural dying america.

Minor league teams usually play in small cities rather than tiny towns.  I agree that they don't have a lot to do with baseball's popularity, but when you add up 42 cities, there is non-zero impact from millions of people not wanting to see their cities get screwed by MLB.    

  

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6 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I wouldn't disagree with anything in the 1st paragraph. I think the 2nd is incorrect however. I think baseball's future is tied to young people playing it much more than the excitement value of the game as telecast from the field. Baseball has never been able to compete with other sports as pure visual entertainment - I think it is a fool's errand if the league thinks that is more than a minor part of their problem. Yes 2:30 is better than 3:10 and they need to take away velcro batting gloves, but in truth the average length of game is only up ~15 minutes in the last 30 yrs (though last year was kind of an outlier up a full 6 min from the year before). The two hour ball game is a bit of a myth in our lifetimes. The average was already ~2:30 in the '60's

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/misc.shtml

An average of 15 minutes is a lot (and 40 minutes is huge) because it means that a lot of games at the right end of the time distribution are really long.  When games start at 7:10 and people need to go to work the next day, the length of games is pretty important.  More important is the lack of action in the modern game.  There is too much dead time with batters and pitchers taking too long in between pitches and once the action does start, it's all home runs and strikeouts and fewer and fewer balls in play each year.  

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