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Motor City Sonics

Are you done with Harbaugh yet?

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I don't know what happened to him but he seems to have just lost it.  

That 4th quarter vs. Army was inexcusable and I think Jim may be more concerned with showing his manhood than making winning decisions.    His manhood almost got stepped on last week, but this is how it's been going for awhile.  If you think Josh Gattis was calling those plays in the 4th quarter, then you are naive.   That was Harbaugh all the way.    Is he sticking with Patterson only to prove some kind of point?   Feels like he might be doing that.    Why does he have this obsession to be Bo?   Bo never really won anything outside the conference and Jim can't even get to the Big Ten championship.    Year 5 with one of the most favorable home schedules in school history with all three rivals coming here.   If he doesn't get to Indy this year, I think it's time to move on.     The question is "But he's the perfect coach, who are you going to get?"    That shouldn't be the reason you don't try to get better.      Or maybe for Michigan it's only about money and he keeps it flowing in,  but if the team keeps disappointing that will eventually dry up too,  it has before.  

These strange decisions, some of his strange behavior - does he have CTE?   He was a tough SOB as a QB and he took a beating.    Something's just off with him, he's just trying to force something that isn't there and naturally it isn't working.       It's not just he frustration of struggling with Army (who probably  should have won that game) but it feels like HE is the reason they struggled with Army.  

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Or and saying "well the analytics said do this or do that" is as lame and unforgivable as "Co Big-Ten East Champs".    That thing about being co-champs and bringing that out is something a loser does.  

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Harbaugh would have to lose 6+ games this year to be a hot seat candidate.  

That said - Harbaugh has not displayed the coaching prowess he showed at his previous HC gigs.  Part of that is the Michigan football culture he inherited, which after 10+ years of "meh" football still thinks it's **** doesn't stink.

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I shouldn't suggest his bad coaching is because of CTE,  he was always a little different.   But, lets be honest, he was a QB in the NFL in the 90s - he has CTE.  

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One of the things we hear about Harbaugh, is "if he leaves,  what are you going to do?" like he's the end of the line of coaches and there can't be anyone better ever.    

Sometimes all the elements seem to be perfect and it doesn't work  (Michigan native and successful coach Steve Mariucci coming to the Lions was supposed to be perfect, it was a disaster).      

Is going 10-3 and 9-4 the real goal for Michigan, as long as they make money?    Maybe it is.   But 2-7 vs. the Big 3 rivals,  1-3 in Bowl Games and 0-4 vs. Ohio State with 0 trips to Indy (that co-champs thing is pathetic) is not what anyone expected and would have probably gotten many other coaches fired.  

As far as nobody else being able to follow up King Jim, there's a guy 6 miles up the road that has turned Eastern Michigan into a competitive team - and that's a massive task there.   I think Dantonio is going to retire at the end of this season (why he didn't fire his friends) and Michigan State might look into hiring Chris Creighton.    The MAC has produced some really good coaches who went on to greater success (Urban Meyer, Brian Kelly, Nick Saban, Bo Schembechler, Jim Tressel).      Eastern Michigan is the hardest football coaching job in the country - no regional fanbase, always overshadowed, not the greatest facilities).  I think Creighton is really good, even though he isn't the biggest name   Maybe that's the kind of thing Michigan needs, but we're at a point now where the kids coming into the program were 2 years old the last time Michigan won the Big Ten and 4 when they played the big 1 vs 2 game at OSU in 2006.  They have no memory of Michigan being this great championship program and Michigan needs to stop living in the past.   

Of course maybe I love Harbaugh again if they go up to Madison and beat the snot out of the Badgers, but I don't expect that at all.   

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2 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Is going 10-3 and 9-4 the real goal for Michigan, as long as they make money?

quite possibly. Look at what is happening to football in the PAC10. Broadly speaking, one of the great traditional conferences pretty much no longer cares about it's national standing in football. I can easily envision a point in the near future where the UoM's goals for its football program and the fan bases goals for the same reach a point of serious divergence. I think all it may take is OSU slipping a bit for the rest of the Big10 to start moving in the direction of the PAC10.

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After today I'm done with Harbaugh. Ryan Day and Ohio State are going to blow this team off the field. This alleged offensive guru can't develop his own wwwQB, brings in transfers who fail to live up to the hype, refused to give up play calls on offense for his first 4 seasons, then brings in an OC whose never called a play before in his life.

 

It really, really hurts to say he needs to be fired because I thought he would make Michigan a national powerhouse. He hasn't and it appears he won't. 

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6 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

After today I'm done with Harbaugh. Ryan Day and Ohio State are going to blow this team off the field. This alleged offensive guru can't develop his own wwwQB, brings in transfers who fail to live up to the hype, refused to give up play calls on offense for his first 4 seasons, then brings in an OC whose never called a play before in his life.

 

It really, really hurts to say he needs to be fired because I thought he would make Michigan a national powerhouse. He hasn't and it appears he won't. 

I know the scheme issues are popular issues but I think it's a talent evaluation problem.   You could make the argument that his best teams were those with him coaching and Hoke's players.

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48 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Ryan Day and Ohio State are going to blow this team off the field.

Dantonio and Michigan State are going to manhandle Michigan as well. 

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1 hour ago, LooseGoose said:

I know the scheme issues are popular issues but I think it's a talent evaluation problem.   You could make the argument that his best teams were those with him coaching and Hoke's players.

What is changing now is that it has become clear that whatever upswing the team had with Harbaughs's hiring, the trajectory of the program has now transitioned to a clearly downward one - on both sides of the ball. It simply is not arguable anymore. This was a defining game - pretty much a fully healthy team, lots of time to prepare, a serious opponent nobody was looking past - and they were not even competitive.

I question the ultimate value of football at a school like UM as much as anyone - but if you are going to play, at least don't embarrass yourself.

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On 9/16/2019 at 9:24 AM, Motor City Sonics said:

One of the things we hear about Harbaugh, is "if he leaves,  what are you going to do?

and who knows what Ward Manuel night do? So far the baseball and hockey hires he made look good. The Howard hiring came out of left field, but we won't know the returns on that one for a while.

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2 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

and who knows what Ward Manuel night do? So far the baseball and hockey hires he made look good. The Howard hiring came out of left field, but we won't know the returns on that one for a while.

I know my opinion won't be popular but I think the Howard hiring is going to be a train wreck, though he has assembled a solid staff so my early opinion may be wrong.   IF MSU or UM had an opening right now I'd take a really close look at Chris Creighton.  He's won everywhere and what he's done at EMU given the resources and history is a near miracle.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

I know my opinion won't be popular but I think the Howard hiring is going to be a train wreck, though he has assembled a solid staff so my early opinion may be wrong

I agree. Howard has no HC experience and comes from the NBA. The only reason why he was hired was because of his connection to the Fab Five. It’s another example of UM weirdness. 

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1 minute ago, LooseGoose said:

I know my opinion won't be popular but I think the Howard hiring is going to be a train wreck, though he has assembled a solid staff so my early opinion may be wrong.   IF MSU or UM had an opening right now I'd take a really close look at Chris Creighton.  He's won everywhere and what he's done at EMU given the resources and history is a near miracle.

 

 

Howard is a definitely a Hail Mary. I guess they think they have built up enough capital in the basketball program to afford taking the risk on a guy that could make a great success story for them.

The question with a Creighton is whether the skillset to achieve some success in a bad program is the same as that to achieve the top level at a storied program. Not saying I know the answer, only that I don't think it's a trivial question.

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The 1970s were an anomaly, the only decade since the 1940s when 0 or 1 loss prior to the bowl game  was the norm.  Starting with Lloyd Carr's hiring, the Wolverines have lost 3 or more games (including bowl games) 21 of the past 25 seasons. Harbaugh's 10-3, 10-3, 8-5, 10-3, 2-1 hasnt returned them to glory but has returned them to what they have been for most of the 70 year stretch between 1949-2019.

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On 9/16/2019 at 11:38 AM, Gehringer_2 said:

quite possibly. Look at what is happening to football in the PAC10. Broadly speaking, one of the great traditional conferences pretty much no longer cares about it's national standing in football. 

I’m interested to hear you elaborate on this point.   I’ve heard many explanations why the Pac12 have failed to be relevant in the playoff era.  I’m not sure that I’ve heard anyone argue that they no longer care about it though.  

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13 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Howard is a definitely a Hail Mary. I guess they think they have built up enough capital in the basketball program to afford taking the risk on a guy that could make a great success story for them.

The question with a Creighton is whether the skillset to achieve some success in a bad program is the same as that to achieve the top level at a storied program. Not saying I know the answer, only that I don't think it's a trivial question.

He could be like a Jim Tressel type who went from Youngstown State to OSU.   They are actually about the same age.   I don't think it's a crazy leap at all.   I know people will complain about taking a recruiting hit, but I want someone who can coach guys up.   Certainly doesn't look like the current guy is getting much out of his 4 star guys.    I don't give a crap about that whole stupid "Michigan Man" thing.    The guy who coined it wasn't a Michigan Man until Michigan hired him, and in fact was an Ohio man.  

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2 hours ago, Hongbit said:

I’m interested to hear you elaborate on this point.   I’ve heard many explanations why the Pac12 have failed to be relevant in the playoff era.  I’m not sure that I’ve heard anyone argue that they no longer care about it though.  

Berkeley and UCLA are part of the UCal system - a monstrously large institution in which the fate of two football teams is just not high on top management's list of concerns, and yet they have built themselves into two of the top 5 public universities in the world during a period when neither was spending much time worrying about their football team. UCLA doesn't even have a home field. High School football participation is down 17% in Oregon in the last 10 yrs,  down at least 12% in CA in just the last 5 yrs. The west coast public is losing interest in amateur football.

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Berkeley and UCLA are part of the UCal system - a monstrously large institution in which the fate of two football teams is just not high on top management's list of concerns, and yet they have built themselves into two of the top 5 public universities in the world during a period when neither was spending much time worrying about their football team. UCLA doesn't even have a home field. High School football participation is down 17% in Oregon in the last 10 yrs,  down at least 12% in CA in just the last 5 yrs. The west coast public is losing interest in amateur football.

And LA has been a bad market for the NFL for decades.

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14 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Matt Campbell at Iowa State is an interesting name.   He's pretty young but has done quite well.  

I like Matt Campbell as well. Dino Babers is another name I would consider. And if you don't at least pick up the phone and call up Urban Meyer and Bob Stoops, then you aren't doing your job as Michigan AD. I'd love to trade Harbaughs with the Ravens but John ain't coming here right after we fire his brother.

 

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13 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Berkeley and UCLA are part of the UCal system - a monstrously large institution in which the fate of two football teams is just not high on top management's list of concerns, and yet they have built themselves into two of the top 5 public universities in the world during a period when neither was spending much time worrying about their football team. UCLA doesn't even have a home field. High School football participation is down 17% in Oregon in the last 10 yrs,  down at least 12% in CA in just the last 5 yrs. The west coast public is losing interest in amateur football.

This is just not accurate.  UCLA doesn’t need the UC system or any public money to fund their athletic department.  They christened a state of the art football center that cost $65M two years ago.  They have a large donor base and in fact raised $40M in funds this past year which was up 15% from their goal.  They had plenty of money to pay Chip Kelly $24M and we rumored to have made John Calipari a $50M offer you be their basketball coach. As for the stadium, it’s just not an option in West LA.  I would also suspect it’s not long until UCLA announces a deal to play in the new Rams stadium in Inglewood.  
 

Cal can do whatever Cal does. It’s always had a small impact on the overall conference.  It’s like using Illinois as the measuring stick for the Big 10. 

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32 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

This is just not accurate.  UCLA doesn’t need the UC system or any public money to fund their athletic department.  They christened a state of the art football center that cost $65M two years ago.  They have a large donor base and in fact raised $40M in funds this past year which was up 15% from their goal.  They had plenty of money to pay Chip Kelly $24M and we rumored to have made John Calipari a $50M offer you be their basketball coach. As for the stadium, it’s just not an option in West LA.  I would also suspect it’s not long until UCLA announces a deal to play in the new Rams stadium in Inglewood.  
 

Cal can do whatever Cal does. It’s always had a small impact on the overall conference.  It’s like using Illinois as the measuring stick for the Big 10. 

UCLA has averaged 6.5 wins over the last 16 yrs and given that the 1st three each year are gimme's for a 1A school, that is not a school that has been taking football very seriously. Yes, it got so bad (4 wins in '16)  that they decided to raise some money and try to stop embarrassing themselves and hired Kelley(sounds familiar). We'll see where it where it gets them. They are in about the same boat as UM. They don't want to do anything they do badly. That's probably enough to get to 7-9 wins per season - much like we are seeing in A^2.

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6 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

UCLA has averaged 6.5 wins over the last 16 yrs and given that the 1st three each year are gimme's for a 1A school, that is not a school that has been taking football very seriously. Yes, it got so bad (4 wins in '16)  that they decided to raise some money and try to stop embarrassing themselves and hired Kelley(sounds familiar). We'll see where it where it gets them. They are in about the same boat as UM. They don't want to do anything they do badly. That's probably enough to get to 7-9 wins per season - much like we are seeing in A^2.

I agree that UCLA football has been a complete disaster for a long time now.  Still, they are very invested in trying to win.   All the teams in the conference are.   They just haven’t been very successful in this current cycle of football.   Hopefully Urban will come in next year and change the fortunes of an entire conference. 

On a related note,  Stanford’s David Shaw would be an ideal replacement for Harbaugh.  I don’t think he’d leave for another college job but Michigan may be the only place that could tempt him.   

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