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Deleterious

2019 Michigan Football

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10 hours ago, Buddha said:

Tater and MCS gonna Tater and MCS.

I realize the frustration at losing to OSU, but Harbaugh has brought Michigan back to respectability.  It hasn't met the expectations of the fan base, but it's still pretty good.  They haven't been able to beat otherworldy OSU teams, but it's been pretty damn good other than that.  It's pretty much back to the way things were under Bo: winning 9-10 games a year, losing an upset here and there.  The difference is OSU is on another plane with their recruiting that they never were before and Penn State is in the conference.  I mean, MSU is back to getting beat down every other year and beaten every year.  They're done.  Occasionally you lose to an Iowa on the road or Wisconsin on the road but that will happen.

I'm as frustrated as anyone at the way they've lost to Ohio State, but until Michigan makes the conscious decision to compete in recruiting in the same fashion as OSU or the SEC, they're not going to be those teams.  OSU sold its soul to (whatever soul it had left) Urban Meyer, Michigan hasn't done that.

Harbaugh has been a bit of a disappointment for me, but when I look at the big picture, he's restored Michigan back to being a top 10 program that hasn't been able to get over that final hump.  Hopefully they can do it in the near future.  

One day the NCAA will have the balls to stop OSU from being OSU.  Until that happens, Michigan will always be behind the 8 ball.

Selling your soul is what needs to be done to win in college football and I want Michigan to do it. I want to win, period. I want Big Ten Championships and National Championships. I have high expectations. 

It isn't right and it is a morally bankrupt system when it comes to college football recruiting. If you have to pay the pastor and do what the SEC schools do to get the kid so be it. Until the NCAA has firm recruiting rules and guidelines that are enforced across the board, we should be doing everything we can to win. It is a sad, pathetic reality, but it is the way it is until the NCAA changes.

I guarantee that not one fan out there would be thinking about cheating, bending the rules, how Michigan got a certain player to commit, etc. if a head coach were standing there holding a National Championship trophy. You know what fans would be doing, guzzling down beer, jumping for joy, and screaming with elation and excitement. 

Until we get rid of Harbaugh and make a serious commitment to winning we will be Ohio's ***** and little brother. We will get smacked around and won't be competitive in games. If you like losing year in and year out to them, keep doing what you're doing. If you never want to go to a Big Ten Championship Game or a CFB Playoff, keep doing what you're doing. If you want to win it all, then you have to fire Harbaugh, change course, and do what it takes.

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10 hours ago, Buddha said:

Tater and MCS gonna Tater and MCS.

I realize the frustration at losing to OSU, but Harbaugh has brought Michigan back to respectability.  It hasn't met the expectations of the fan base, but it's still pretty good.  They haven't been able to beat otherworldy OSU teams, but it's been pretty damn good other than that.  It's pretty much back to the way things were under Bo: winning 9-10 games a year, losing an upset here and there.  The difference is OSU is on another plane with their recruiting that they never were before and Penn State is in the conference.  I mean, MSU is back to getting beat down every other year and beaten every year.  They're done.  Occasionally you lose to an Iowa on the road or Wisconsin on the road but that will happen.

I'm as frustrated as anyone at the way they've lost to Ohio State, but until Michigan makes the conscious decision to compete in recruiting in the same fashion as OSU or the SEC, they're not going to be those teams.  OSU sold its soul to (whatever soul it had left) Urban Meyer, Michigan hasn't done that.

Harbaugh has been a bit of a disappointment for me, but when I look at the big picture, he's restored Michigan back to being a top 10 program that hasn't been able to get over that final hump.  Hopefully they can do it in the near future.  

One day the NCAA will have the balls to stop OSU from being OSU.  Until that happens, Michigan will always be behind the 8 ball.

Agreed. 
 

I don’t think Michigan will ever be on par with OSU when it comes to recruiting and overall talent. But being in the tier just below is good enough from my perspective. I don’t feel the need to demand any more than that. I want Michigan to be the best that Michigan can be, and to me that is a top ten program. A top ten program is good enough to be in championship contention every few years. And for the most part that has been the case. Michigan was contending for championships in 2016 (Ranked 3 heading into the game and one yard short of winning) and 2018 (ranked 4 heading into the game and blown out).

That might not be good enough for Mike Valenti, but that’s good enough for me. They aren’t going to lose the game every year.

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So we're basically not lowering the bar at this point, we're just setting it on the floor and shrugging our shoulders? When did it become acceptable for Michigan not to beat Ohio? Not only that, we're accepting getting blown off the field by Wisconsin and nearly losing to Army.

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43 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Transfer QB's are fine.  

They have won the last two Heismans and another transfer QB is the favorite to win it this year.  

A transfer QB just destroyed your team.  Two of the three NC favorites are lead by a transfer QB.  If Oklahoma makes the playoffs, three of the 4 teams in the playoffs will have a transfer QB leading them.

Shea didn't live up to the hype he had when  he transferred.  But if you made a list of the problems Michigan has, he isn't even top 5.

Transfer QB’s come mainly from a few buckets.
 

There’s the Mercedes- The 5 star recruit from a top 15 program that got lost on the depth chart when the school brought in another 5 star recruit the year before or after that they couldn’t beat. 

There’s the Lexus - 3 or 4 star recruit at a P5 school usually outside the elite that for whatever reason couldn’t win the job or didn’t have immediate success.

There’s the Acura -  A grad transfer experienced starter at a G5 or FCS program that wants 1 year in a big program to hopefully showcase for pro scouts.

The very successful transfer QBs have usually come from the Mercedes group.   
 

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And Michigan got the Ford Fiesta of transfer QB's in Shea Patterson who went a pathetic 18 of 43 with 1 TD, 1 INT and had a 41.9% completion percentage against Ohio.

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3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

And Michigan got the Ford Fiesta of transfer QB's in Shea Patterson who went a pathetic 18 of 43 with 1 TD, 1 INT and had a 41.9% completion percentage against Ohio.

 

Shea was kind of a tweener.  Maybe a lower level BMW.  Either way he had a factory defect that never got fixed

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27 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

So we're basically not lowering the bar at this point, we're just setting it on the floor and shrugging our shoulders? When did it become acceptable for Michigan not to beat Ohio?

I think it’s ok to be realistic about where to set the bar. Personally, I don’t get too hung up on ultimatums for what qualifies as “acceptable.” What does that even mean? I don’t accept my school losing to Ohio state every year. So, what, I yell about it on the radio or complain about it on message boards and make demands that aren’t going to be heard? Or, I accept it and that means I don’t care if they win or not? I want them to win. They have not. They have had varying degrees of chances to do so, but a chance is just that. You still have another team on the field that also wants to win. 
 

There are a lot of other teams similar to Michigan that are not on the level of Alabama or Ohio state or Clemson. For the most part, all of them. And I think if you put Michigan in their position over the past five years you would have your playoff appearance or conference championship or “trip to Indy.” 
 

Michigan is not unique in its ability to devote resources to its program. PSU, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Tennessee, Florida, Texas, Nebraska, USC, etc. Despite some of those teams winning their conference or making their title game or making the playoff, I don’t believe that they have had substantially better programs than Michigan. 
 

If I’m setting a bar, I’m setting it at the overall quality of the team and program, and Michigan has been a very good program under Harbaugh. I’m not setting an ultimatum based on a particular game or requiring Michigan to be capital E elite. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

 

Shea was kind of a tweener.  Maybe a lower level BMW.  Either way he had a factory defect that never got fixed

Shea was a leased Audi A4.

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Generalizing, but I would say that the many in the win at all costs are fans but not alums, while many in the good but clean camp are alums.

By the way, from 2015-2019 vs Ohio State:

Michigan 0-5

Wisconsin 0-3

Penn St. 1-4

MSU 1-4

ND  0-1

Yeah, it sucks that Michigan didn't pick up at least 1 win in there, but issue seems to be bigger than just the head coach.

 

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10 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Generalizing, but I would say that the many in the win at all costs are fans but not alums, while many in the good but clean camp are alums.

I think many alums to start out in that good but clean category but they change once they get a taste of life at the very top.   Once you’ve been there for a period of time, it’s hard to handle a number of years in a lower tier and not being in the national title race.   

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10 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

So if I counted correctly, Michigan has no First Team guys, three Second-Teamers, three Third-Teamers (one of them a kick-returner, who admittedly gets a lot of playing time thanks to the Don Brown Defense), , and a few Honorable Mentions.  Not much to dance on State Street over. 

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1 hour ago, lordstanley said:

Generalizing, but I would say that the many in the win at all costs are fans but not alums, while many in the good but clean camp are alums.

By the way, from 2015-2019 vs Ohio State:

Michigan 0-5

Wisconsin 0-3

Penn St. 1-4

MSU 1-4

ND  0-1

Yeah, it sucks that Michigan didn't pick up at least 1 win in there, but issue seems to be bigger than just the head coach.

 

In the case of Michigan State they won the Big Ten and went to a CFB Playoff game in that time frame which makes all the difference in the world. MSU also went on the road and into the Toilet Bowl and beat an Urban Meyer coached Ohio with a backup, freshman QB.

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Just an aside, but what’s the deal with calling OSU “Ohio”? 

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22 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Just an aside, but what’s the deal with calling OSU “Ohio”? 

People have referred to them as "The School From Ohio" instead of "The Ohio State" as they call themselves so I just dropped The School From part when referring to them. I realize Ohio is the Bobcats, not the Buckeyes. Anything to disparage the worst school and group of fans in America though.

Columbus fans are positively the worst. My friend Mark went down to the Toilet Bowl for a game a few years back and made the mistake of having a U of M sticker on his car and someone politely ripped off his side view mirror and left it on the ground by the car. 

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12 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

People have referred to them as "The School From Ohio" instead of "The Ohio State" as they call themselves so I just dropped The School From part when referring to them. I realize Ohio is the Bobcats, not the Buckeyes. Anything to disparage the worst school and group of fans in America though.

Columbus fans are positively the worst. My friend Mark went down to the Toilet Bowl for a game a few years back and made the mistake of having a U of M sticker on his car and someone politely ripped off his side view mirror and left it on the ground by the car. 

I remember when Hoke called them that but I guess I just figured that died when he was fired. 

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7 hours ago, Hongbit said:

 

Shea was kind of a tweener.  Maybe a lower level BMW.  Either way he had a factory defect that never got fixed

Cheap entry-level cars from companies that specialize in top-shelf stuff are often among the worst cars on the road.  Back in the 90s, a friend of mine bought a BMW 318i hatchback.  It was like a Dodge Neon with the luxury removed.  

As angry as I am at the state of Michigan football, I can't equate Shea Patterson with that piece of krap.  He's more like a nondescript car that qualifies as a transportation appliance -- something that generally starts and gets you to work or the grocery store, but has all of the cachet of a refrigerator or a dishwasher.

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4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

People have referred to them as "The School From Ohio" instead of "The Ohio State" as they call themselves so I just dropped The School From part when referring to them. I realize Ohio is the Bobcats, not the Buckeyes. Anything to disparage the worst school and group of fans in America though.

Columbus fans are positively the worst. My friend Mark went down to the Toilet Bowl for a game a few years back and made the mistake of having a U of M sticker on his car and someone politely ripped off his side view mirror and left it on the ground by the car. 

They are indeed the worst.  I've encountered them at many Michigan-OSU games, and a large percentage of them are subhuman.  Very difficult for the wine-and-cheese Michigan alumni to deal with.  Fortunately for me, I am from the beer and burger and barely-human wing,  so I am less easily intimidated by their animalistic behavior.  

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17 minutes ago, Buddha said:

What are you going to get that's better?

Don't give me Chris Peterson cause that's not going to happen.  Who else?

In a perfect world, where I could have anyone I wanted, either Urban Meyer or John Harbaugh would be my first two choices. Knowing those are completely unrealistic I would look at any of the following names . . .

PJ Fleck, Luke Fickell, Matt Rhule, Bob Stoops, Brent Venables, Jeff Scott, Mike Norvell, and yes, possibly Chris Petersen. I've soured a bit on Petersen given that I thought he would dominate the Pac 10 at Washington with Oregon and USC having had down years while he was at Washington. While he was successful there, I'm not completely sold on the idea of him coming to the Big Ten and being as dominate as I once thought he could be.

Fleck, Fickell, and Rhule would be my top 3 choices. Fleck just reupped for 6 years with Minnesota, but I have no doubt Michigan has the financial resources to buy his contract out. The question is, would he be willing to come here? Fickell is building a strong program in Cincinnati and has long standing recruiting ties in Ohio to help get Michigan back into that football hotbed. Yeah, I get it, he's an Ohio State guy, but so was Bo. Back a dump truck full of money on his front porch and give him free reign to do what he wants, which means recruit how OSU does. Matt Rhule has Penn State ties and may be holding out for that job or may never want to go to a Big Ten school other than Penn State. Rhule is also getting rumored for NFL coaching jobs in the future.

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Michigan has 1 win between 4 different coaches against OSU in the past 17 years, maybe that just shows that it doesn't matter the coach they aren't on the same level as a program as OSU and honestly haven't been in decades.

Sure you would like and expect to beat them now and again but I believe Harbaugh is more than capable of doing that.  If they stopped them on that 4th and 1 a couple years back they would've won, does that one play suddenly make Harbaugh a better coach if that were to happen?  I don't think so. 

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7 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Michigan has 1 win between 4 different coaches against OSU in the past 17 years, maybe that just shows that it doesn't matter the coach they aren't on the same level as a program as OSU and honestly haven't been in decades.

Sure you would like and expect to beat them now and again but I believe Harbaugh is more than capable of doing that.  If they stopped them on that 4th and 1 a couple years back they would've won, does that one play suddenly make Harbaugh a better coach if that were to happen?  I don't think so. 

One of the longstanding problems with Michigan football, that predates Harbaugh, is the way we recruit. That has to change if we want to be in the National Championship picture at years end. We have to mirror, as much as we can, what Alabama, Georgia, Clemson, LSU are doing down south. Obviously, given that those are southern schools, they will have better access to their high school players. That said, I think there is much more Michigan can be doing to recruit the east coast, California, Texas, and more into Ohio. I think a coach like Fickell in particular can work to open up the Ohio market again for Michigan.

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