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IdahoBert

How does 2003 compare to 2019?

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I had not yet clocked back in as a fan in 2003.  I checked back in in 2004.

How does that level of futility compare to this level of futility for those of you who have experienced both?  Without having experienced it I would think that 2003 came after a “long train of abuses and usurpations” so people were used to punishment.  But with the memory of a more recent streak of great success it’s possible that this low point is even lower but I don’t know. 

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I was a helluva lot younger, had 3 kids at home and was working my **** off.    

Now am older, kids all married, have grandkids, retired enjoying life.

All things considered I'll take 2019

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It's a different feeling. In 2003, we didn't have a future HOF player and we had an inexperienced manager as opposed to the 100 years of experience from Gardy.  And as opposed to this year, they were using players that probably should have still been in the minors, including Ramon Santiago, Omar Infante, and Jeremy Bonderman.  

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17 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

It's a different feeling. In 2003, we didn't have a future HOF player and we had an inexperienced manager as opposed to the 100 years of experience from Gardy.  And as opposed to this year, they were using players that probably should have still been in the minors, including Ramon Santiago, Omar Infante, and Jeremy Bonderman.  

This is my take as well and what frustrates me about 2019...and why I stopped watching TV games since mid-May.   DD brought the guys in/up to see what he had.  Inge, Maroth, Bonderman, CMo, Omar, Ramon etc.   I still watched the Tigers when I could from Wisconsin and had interest, and participated on this board, because the rebuild was underway.    Now.   We are just bringing up Stewart, Reyes, Turnbull but yet Willi Castro, Burrows, Rogers, Cameron and even guys like Robson or Hill are still buried in the minors.   Yes 1/2 or more may fail but I'd rather lose 119 to get a better view of the future, than lose 119 with the current version of the Tigers.   

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23 minutes ago, syrett4 said:

This is my take as well and what frustrates me about 2019...and why I stopped watching TV games since mid-May.   DD brought the guys in/up to see what he had.  Inge, Maroth, Bonderman, CMo, Omar, Ramon etc.   I still watched the Tigers when I could from Wisconsin and had interest, and participated on this board, because the rebuild was underway.    Now.   We are just bringing up Stewart, Reyes, Turnbull but yet Willi Castro, Burrows, Rogers, Cameron and even guys like Robson or Hill are still buried in the minors.   Yes 1/2 or more may fail but I'd rather lose 119 to get a better view of the future, than lose 119 with the current version of the Tigers.   

Part of the problem is that guys we have brought up have not produced - Stewart, Niko, Greiner. Another problem is just roster spots. They have to carry too many pitchers now. You could bring up a guy like Robson and get him into 3 games a week but it would mean carrying another OF and they don't have a spot available and you are not going to bring him up  at the expense of sending Stewart or Jones down just to give him a look.

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1 hour ago, syrett4 said:

This is my take as well and what frustrates me about 2019...and why I stopped watching TV games since mid-May.   DD brought the guys in/up to see what he had.  Inge, Maroth, Bonderman, CMo, Omar, Ramon etc.   I still watched the Tigers when I could from Wisconsin and had interest, and participated on this board, because the rebuild was underway.    Now.   We are just bringing up Stewart, Reyes, Turnbull but yet Willi Castro, Burrows, Rogers, Cameron and even guys like Robson or Hill are still buried in the minors.   Yes 1/2 or more may fail but I'd rather lose 119 to get a better view of the future, than lose 119 with the current version of the Tigers.   

A) those guys were up in 2003 cause we literally had nobody else to replace them

B) the guys you listed as being a problem on this team are all what rookies? So we're mad we are not replacing the rookies with other rookies to see the better view of the future. In what world does that make any sense?

c) the economics is different/better understood. Why bring a guy up to "see what he has" just to lose a year of a control/make him more expensive when you are good?

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52 minutes ago, Keepleyland2 said:

A) those guys were up in 2003 cause we literally had nobody else to replace them

B) the guys you listed as being a problem on this team are all what rookies? So we're mad we are not replacing the rookies with other rookies to see the better view of the future. In what world does that make any sense?

c) the economics is different/better understood. Why bring a guy up to "see what he has" just to lose a year of a control/make him more expensive when you are good?

A Well DD didn't sign a bunch of unwatchable stop-gap 1 year deals hoping to flip them.

B Oh they should keep those guys up.   It's the Goodrums, Carpenters, Hicks, Wilsons, Dixons, Harrisons, Mercers that I don't care to watch attempt to play baseball.  I want to see more of Stewart, Reyes and Turnbull along with the other guys I mentioned.  

C True on the economics, but the question was how 03 differs from 19.  I want to see guys that will be on the Tigers in 21 and 22 which is why I bought the MiLB package and watch those games instead.  In my eyes they are still in the tearing down phase and creating talent depth in the minors, but at the MLB level the true "rebuild" will start next season (hopefully).  I'd bet 2020 looks closer to 2003 than 2019 does.  Kind of like what Joe Louis Arena looks like right now.  

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8 hours ago, syrett4 said:

This is my take as well and what frustrates me about 2019...and why I stopped watching TV games since mid-May.   DD brought the guys in/up to see what he had.  Inge, Maroth, Bonderman, CMo, Omar, Ramon etc.   I still watched the Tigers when I could from Wisconsin and had interest, and participated on this board, because the rebuild was underway.    Now.   We are just bringing up Stewart, Reyes, Turnbull but yet Willi Castro, Burrows, Rogers, Cameron and even guys like Robson or Hill are still buried in the minors.   Yes 1/2 or more may fail but I'd rather lose 119 to get a better view of the future, than lose 119 with the current version of the Tigers.   

In addition to the economics and control mentioned above....

Daz Cameron is only 22 years old.  His OPS in AAA is .696.  I think we can be patient with him in AAA for now.

Beau Burrows is only 22 years old.  His SO/BB is at 1.80 after only 41 2/3 IP in AAA.  I'm not sure what promoting him to Detroit does right now.

Derek Hill is 23 and has a career OPS of .655.  He's currently at .689 in AA.  He's probably not even ready for AAA, but you want him in Detroit?

Rogers has not look all that good at the plate since May.  The Tigers' catching is a mess right now, but no reason to rush Rogers up before he's ready.

I think we'll probably see Rogers and Castro next season.  Maybe Robson (who has rebounded from a poor start) makes that cut as well, its tough to say.  Cabrera's inability to play 1B and needing 13 pitchers on the staff kind of cut into the position players a bit.  I think next season is when the roster gets bumped from 25 to 26.  With Castellanos out, that probably allows for at least Reyes to make the team out of camp, and maybe Robson as well.  I know the knock on Robson has been a lack of power and that he's not much more than a 4A OF.  But that probably plays on the 2020 Tigers.

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33 minutes ago, Casimir said:

Daz Cameron is only 22 years old.

if anything it looks like Cameron and Rogers were promoted to AAA too soon.

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8 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

if anything it looks like Cameron and Rogers were promoted to AAA too soon.

I don't know.  Maybe for Cameron, although in 2018 at Erie he slashed .285/.367/.470 in 226 PAs.

Rogers had the awful start of 2018 in Erie, but rebounded exceptionally well.  Then started off this season .302/.429/.535 in 112 PAs at AA.  I'm not sure how he couldn't be moved to AAA unless his defense was completely abhorrent.

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Is it worth mentioning that another major difference was that in 2003 tickets were far cheaper? Perhaps more specifically the Tigers back then were donating a ton of tickets to local promotions so you could "win" tickets through radio promos, etc. To purchase I think you could routinely get bleacher seats for under $10.

As a result I know I attended 4 games that year (somehow seeing 4 wins in that disaster of a season). This year everytime I log in to think about buying tickets I'm just disgusted by the price and exit out. I know they ran some "flash sales" or something, but I missed out on the right time to order tickets when they were still cheap. I see they're running some $15 promos this weekend (when I cannot make it), so I guess they're finally starting to rectify this.

Just going onto the site to order tickets (without making sure you're on the right promo day or flash sale) bleacher seats are retail at like $34 each, before their fees. That becomes close to $45. For outfield bleacher seats. To watch a team that will lose 105+ games.

 

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My son was a cute 2 1/2 year old who loved cuddling and being sweet.  I just started a new job.  My wife was pregnant.  I was fat.  

 

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I was a freshman in college, the whole world ahead of me.

And there was a guy named Brian Schmack on the Tigers.

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Rogers may not be anything more than a great defender/receiver with an average bat. That's still a huuuuuge upgrade over what they have.

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This is worse.  In 2003, you were experiencing the disillusionment for the first time and didn’t really know how bad it could get until the end.

Having lived through it once, this is dredging up all sorts of crappy memories and we know how this movie will end (badly).

However, we were in a World Series three years later and we have a much better farm system than we did in 03.  So there is room for some optimism, though slightly.

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I was 40 years old in 2003.  I am 56 now.  I will take 2003 without hesitation.  I am also a different fan than I was then, so I can't really compare.  I was more idealistic and hopeful back then.  I think all the years of analysis and writing has made it more difficult to be a fan who just wants to be entertained (even though I have been trying to get back to that more).  It is now more difficult to just accept the team as it is and just enjoy the games.  

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

My son was a cute 2 1/2 year old who loved cuddling and being sweet.  I just started a new job.  My wife was pregnant.  I was fat.  

was?

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This year is worse. Looking back, I don’t believe the org was purposely tanking in 2003. I’m not saying they weren’t full of stupid ideas though. This year it’s clearly a dedicated tank. Tanking is MLB cool now. 😎 Tough time to be a fan these days. 

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My above answer was all about me and it sucked, so I'll try again.  2003 was a lot different from 2019 for baseball reasons.  The Tigers were really bad for a long time before 2003 and they had an exciting new GM, so I saw the 2003 as kind of a cleansing and a new beginning. It was actually kind of fun to see how it would play out.   

We are now coming off a fairly long period where we saw good, entertaining baseball and we saw star players go for questionable returns in some cases. So, that makes me less patient with the current team.  We also have a GM who most view either negatively or neutrally.  I am not ready to say Avila is another Randy Smith, but I am a lot less hopeful than I was in 2003.  

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54 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

was?

We were doing my son's picture board for his grad party so I'm scrolling through our digital photos from 2005 and 2006... there's some from being out on the lake... 

Whoa boy.

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Today you have an owner that cares very little about winning. This "rebuild" has been bungled from the start. How do you trade the core of your rotation for prospects? DD brought in Pudge and Kenny Rogers, vets that stabilized the catching position and enhanced the young roatation. The Tigers are doomed until a good rotation can be built.

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Many fans have already tuned the Tigers out for this year ..especially on the heels of the prior 2 terrible years. 

I am still following the Tigers this year although not as closely as I did 2006 through 2017. 

However, ..looking back at 2003 ..I had already tuned the Tigers out a couple seasons prior to that one ..so have very little memory of the Tigers from then because I did not follow the games.  I knew they were bad ..also knew they somehow (miracle?) won 5 of their final 6 games to avoid tying the Mets 20th century record for most losses in a season.  

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13 minutes ago, roarintiger1 said:

Bringing back Ernie Harwell would help ease the pain of this season.   Sadly we can't.

Rick Rizzs?

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