Jump to content

Tigrrfan

When did the 'Rebuild' actually begin? ..What do you think?

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, 1776 said:

Moving JV was handled poorly in my opinion. I agree with your comment. Cabrera is a problem from now until he’s gone. Shame.

I think the Verlander deal was the moment of no going back.  The team was at a fork in the road (probably a continual fork in the road if he had stayed on the roster), but moving him was a defining end to the era.

Cabrera's contract is an absolute albatross.  There's just no way around it.  So many people were so happy he received that extension because it meant he would go into the hall as a Tiger and we could enjoy the rest of his career as a Tiger,..... but here we are.  He can probably still be productive somewhat and I would not be surprised if the lack of power this season is still a hangover from his biceps injury last season.  But even if he does bounce back, he likely won't rebound enough to justify his final few seasons.

Good grief, take a look at the Tiger page on bbref and look at the heads at the top that are the top 12 in WAR for the team.  Guess where Cabrera's head is?  That's right.  Not even on the page.  For the bargain rate of $30M per season through the 2023 season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

So the period of time between 1989-2001 is what then?  A period of nothingness?  How do we know if we are in a true rebuild right now or another period of nothingness?  

We will only know in hindsight, when during a pause in future celebrations we take time for retrospection and reflection. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I think the Verlander deal was the moment of no going back.  The team was at a fork in the road (probably a continual fork in the road if he had stayed on the roster), but moving him was a defining end to the era.

Cabrera's contract is an absolute albatross.  There's just no way around it.  So many people were so happy he received that extension because it meant he would go into the hall as a Tiger and we could enjoy the rest of his career as a Tiger,..... but here we are.  He can probably still be productive somewhat and I would not be surprised if the lack of power this season is still a hangover from his biceps injury last season.  But even if he does bounce back, he likely won't rebound enough to justify his final few seasons.

Good grief, take a look at the Tiger page on bbref and look at the heads at the top that are the top 12 in WAR for the team.  Guess where Cabrera's head is?  That's right.  Not even on the page.  For the bargain rate of $30M per season through the 2023 season.

Just release him. The typical Tiger fan will forget all about his money still being on the books and we can move on. Cabrera has no power, he's missing fastballs and needs a walker to run the bases. Maybe his knee, bicep and back will get a bit better but he looks to be quite overweight. He's a shell of his former self. It reminds me of seeing old videos of Babe Ruth after he moved on from the Yankees. Sad, very sad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

Fans are using the term "rebuild" interchangeably with "losing."  The Tigers have had losing seasons in 4 of their last 5 years. We can argue back and forth on whether or not they were "trying," but the fact of the matter is that the Tiger fans are tired of all the losing.  Where can we pinpoint the exact moment that the "rebuild" started before 2006? 

Fans using the term "rebuild" inerchangeably with "losing" is a logical extension ..and I agree.  Also agree that Tiger fans are tired of all the losing.  And Al Avila and Chris I are indeed the logical scapegoats ..as is Miggy (and Zimmerman.)  

As for the 'pinpoint' of the rebuild prior to 2006 ..I reflect back to when Pudge was signed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

So the period of time between 1989-2001 is what then?  A period of nothingness?  How do we know if we are in a true rebuild right now or another period of nothingness?  

1989-2001 could be referred to as a period of ignorance and apathy by Mike I.  

Chris I and Al A have both stated that this particular rebuild's goal is to build the entire franchise into one that becomes competitive from within (their own prospects) ..and have the team remain a successful playoff contender for a the long term.  Mike I and Dave D basically bought a contending team with $$$ and selling the farm.  It seems to me, based upon the few and far between public statements by Chris I regarding the team ..that he envisions building a perennial contender without selling the farm.

I like what I see on the farm right now ..and most likely there will be at least a couple of excellent additions the next couple of years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

the Dombrowski Decline.

I won't rip Dombrowski.  He did everything he could to get us a World Series title, we fell short a couple of times - the issue was typically the bullpen and you can't say he didn't try to get that.   The guy gave us a decade of great baseball.  Had to end sometime.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

1989-2001 could be referred to as a period of ignorance and apathy by Mike I.  

Chris I and Al A have both stated that this particular rebuild's goal is to build the entire franchise into one that becomes competitive from within (their own prospects) ..and have the team remain a successful playoff contender for a the long term.  Mike I and Dave D basically bought a contending team with $$$ and selling the farm.  It seems to me, based upon the few and far between public statements by Chris I regarding the team ..that he envisions building a perennial contender without selling the farm.

I like what I see on the farm right now ..and most likely there will be at least a couple of excellent additions the next couple of years.

I wouldn't say it was ignorance and apathy.  He just didn't find the right person to run it all yet.  Sometimes it takes awhile.   Took him over a decade to really get the Red Wings in shape, and that was with Jimmy Devallano as the architect.   And remember, the 1997/98 teams were not built with a bunch of free agents (it feels like that, but it wasn't).  Most players were homegrown or acquired in trades.  the Free Agents were more like castoffs from other teams.     Mike didn't find the right guy until he hired Dombrowski, and Dave turned it around quickly.   You have to understand that if Mike is unsure about who is running the team, he's probably not going to give them a blank check.  With Dombrowski he was sure, because of Dave's track record and he gave him the blank check and Dave ran with it.  It was fun while it lasted. 

 

I am getting a little tired of people ripping the guys that gave us some exciting baseball over a long stretch.   We got awfully spoiled when they spent like a big market team.    I'll always appreciate what they tried to do.   Now Chris Illitch is trying to be more responsible and I can't fault him for that - the team was losing money, even while winning.   Not sure on Al Avila and don't understand the contract extension at this time.   With the two pitchers they have, Al better hit a home run here at the deadline.  I think THIS rebuild rides on this year's deadline and that's why I said August 1, 2019.     It sure doesn't look like he's gotten what he could in previous deadline deals.   What is his best trade?  JaCoby Jones, if he really has figured out the hitting thing, might be a really nice find, but it doesn't feel like there is much else there and having the corpses of Miggy and Zimmy around aren't going to help the rebuild.    Sorry, Miggy........you wanna be a leader get serious and drop 40 lbs.      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Casimir said:

Good grief, take a look at the Tiger page on bbref and look at the heads at the top that are the top 12 in WAR for the team.  Guess where Cabrera's head is?  That's right.  Not even on the page. 

For hitters ..bbref lists Miggy at #10.  He has played less than 12 years for the Tigers.  Of the top 10 hitters ..only Hank Greenberg played fewer games.  The rest all played 17 to 24 seasons for the Tigers.  

bbref shows Miggy with exactly 0 WAR combined 2017 thru today 2019.   That means Miggy made the Tigers top ten in hitters WAR in basically just 9 seasons with the Tigers.

And now he will never be as good again ..never ..and its going to be a very long 4.4 more years for him on the team.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rebuild began with the slow start in 2017 and trading JD in mid July. That team was still built to compete but they just didn’t get it done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Shelton said:

The rebuild began with the slow start in 2017 and trading JD in mid July. That team was still built to compete but they just didn’t get it done.

Your wisdom adds value to this board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

For hitters ..bbref lists Miggy at #10.  He has played less than 12 years for the Tigers.  Of the top 10 hitters ..only Hank Greenberg played fewer games.  The rest all played 17 to 24 seasons for the Tigers.  

bbref shows Miggy with exactly 0 WAR combined 2017 thru today 2019.   That means Miggy made the Tigers top ten in hitters WAR in basically just 9 seasons with the Tigers.

And now he will never be as good again ..never ..and its going to be a very long 4.4 more years for him on the team.  

If he drops significant weight he can still be an effective hitter.  Maybe not power-wise, but still a threat.     It's up to him, really. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tigrrfan said:

For hitters ..bbref lists Miggy at #10.  He has played less than 12 years for the Tigers.  Of the top 10 hitters ..only Hank Greenberg played fewer games.  The rest all played 17 to 24 seasons for the Tigers.  

bbref shows Miggy with exactly 0 WAR combined 2017 thru today 2019.   That means Miggy made the Tigers top ten in hitters WAR in basically just 9 seasons with the Tigers.

And now he will never be as good again ..never ..and its going to be a very long 4.4 more years for him on the team.  

I'm talking 2019.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LooseGoose said:

Your wisdom adds value to this board.

Your wisdom adds value to this board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

If he drops significant weight he can still be an effective hitter.  Maybe not power-wise, but still a threat.     It's up to him, really. 

Miggy is a better hitter than we think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I'm talking 2019.

Ahh .. not all time.  Thanks for the clarity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Casimir said:

I'm talking 2019.

"For the bargain rate of $30M per season through the 2023 season."

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

There have been plenty of guys who were in shape who fell off tremendously at 35.

Given his ability to still carry a 340 BA for months at a time, I tend to think that Miguel is one of the lucky ones whose ability to hit will hold up longer than usual, but like a lot of others I question his commitment to staying on the field, and now that he is DHing he seems to be throwing away a lot more ABs where he just doesn't seem to be engaged than he ever used to. So despite that I think he probably could remain productive, I'm not very optimistic he will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

"For the bargain rate of $30M per season through the 2023 season."

 

Yes.  We get this for four more years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

"For the bargain rate of $30M per season through the 2023 season."

 

Miggy gets $32 million/year over his last 2 years. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, 1776 said:

“Almost daily, ..no .. ..definitely every - single - day  ..I continue to see and read an enormous number of negative & resentful posts on numerous Detroit Tiger discussion sites where (so-called) Detroit Tiger fans are very disgusted (even angry, as if loathing in self-pity) ...”

Frankly, the team sucks out loud! Who cares when the rebuild started! Until proven otherwise, the organization sucks out loud! The org is a joke. Fans feel betrayed. What on earth do you expect to hear and read?! Fans are just fed up with losing and the team playing crap baseball. So for being upset at a garbage effort, you’re saying they’re “so-called” fans? “Loathing in self-pity.” 🙄 

 

You're wrong about the importance of fixing the exact date on which the rebuild began.  The uncertainty about it is keeping me up at night.  It's at the very top of my list of concerns about the state of the world, ahead of even the crucial questions of who will win this year's Women's World Cup in soccer and how many Al Avilas can dance on the head of a pin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remain hopeful that at some point pride will get Miggy into the gym and out of the kitchen. he has some very attainable personal milestones that should be of interest to him. I think he can still hit and have gap power even on one leg if motivated. Perhaps if the team was more competitive he would be also. Or maybe his personal life, which we all don't care about , might be weighing very heavily on him in manner we just don't know.

He was sooo bloody good.....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      96,709
    • Total Posts
      2,929,188
  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
×
×
  • Create New...