Jump to content

Tigrrfan

When did the 'Rebuild' actually begin? ..What do you think?

Recommended Posts

Almost daily, ..no .. ..definitely every - single - day  ..I continue to see and read an enormous number of negative & resentful posts on numerous Detroit Tiger discussion sites where (so-called) Detroit Tiger fans are very disgusted (even angry, as if loathing in self-pity) that the Detroit Tiger current total 'rebuild' is now in its 4th year since DD traded David Price, Yeonis Cespedes, and Joakim Soria in July 2015 for Daniel Norris, Matthew Boyd, Michael Fulmer, and Jacoby Jones.  

In regard to folks who redundantly (ad-nauseam) complain that the rebuild began in 2015 and the Tigers have made very little to no clear progress in 4 years  ..what they fail to understand is that David Price, Yeonis Cespedes, and Joakim Soria were all going to become Free Agents after 2015 anyway ..that is, unless the Tigers were willing (and stupid enough) to add even more very high-priced long term contracts than they already had.  Indeed, David Price signed a 7yr/$210m contract with the Bosox ..Yeonis Cespedes signed a 5yr/$137.5m contract with the Mets ..and Soria has earned $31.5m over the past 4 years. .. And lest anyone 'conveniently' forget, the Detroit Tigers already had Justin Verlander @ $28m/yr, Miguel Cabrera @ $30m/yr, Victor Martinez @ $18m/yr, and Anibal Sanchez @ $16.8m/yr. 

Thus, taking a look back at those 3 trades back in July 2015 ..research reveals that since beginning of 2016 season up to today (salaries through end of 2019) ..Price, Cespedes, and Soria have accumulated a combined 19.9 WAR at a $260.1m price tag.  That = $13m/WAR. ... .. Correspondingly, Fulmer, Boyd, Norris, and Jacoby have accumulated a combined 22.2 WAR at a $11.2m price tag ($0.5m/WAR.)  Yes, $13m per war vs a mere $0.5m per war!  Hmmmm?  Why do the chronic complainers not look at and consider the actual research ..and at least attempt to understand???

OK .. considering those statistics above ..and in my humble opinion ..trading Price, Cespedes, and Soria was not part of the current 'total' rebuild.  Rather, a very good case could have been made (and still can) that DD and the Tigers at that time may have actually increased the Tiger's 'then-window-of-opportunity' for long-term success by acquiring 4 highly regarded youngsters in Fulmer, Norris, Boyd, and Jacoby Jones. 

.....

Further evidence that suggests that the 2015 trades were not part of a total rebuild is the fact that while the Tigers traded David Price, Yeonis Cespedes, and Joakim Soria before they could bolt for Free Agency and left the Tigers with nothing to show for it ..or could have cost the Tigers upwards of $65m/yr to resign them IF the players would have accepted (Price & Yeonis wanted out anyway) ..the Tigers then went out and signed Free Agents Justin Upton, Jordan Zimmerman, Mike Pelfrey, Mark Lowe, and K-Rod during that off-season.  Irregardless of the fact that only the JUp signing was a success (until they traded him less than 2 years later) while..the Zimmerman, Pelfrey, Lowe, and K-Rod signings were absolute disasters ..the Tigers shelled out approximately $64.375m/yr for various number of years for those Free Agents.  Basically, by trading Price, Cespedes, & Soria, they shed $65m/yr in salaries and acquired 4 highly regarded young prospects in Fulmer, Boyd, Norris, & JJones ..then added $64m in salaries for JUp, JZimm, Pelfrey, K-Rod, and Lowe in the hope the then-Tigers might still bring a World Championship to Detroit.  Indeed, at the time ..by going into the 2016 season with a roster that included Miggy, VMart, JDMartinez, JUpton, Kinsler, Iggy, Nick Castellanos, CMaybin, JVerlander, Zimmerman, Anibal Sanchez, Fulmer, Norris, Boyd, K-Rod, AWilson, ..., it is abundantly evident that the Tigers fully expected to compete for a World Championship for the 2016 season.   

.....

To be clear, I contend that the current total rebuild is very different from what DD did when he traded Price, Cespedes, and Soria ..and that the current total rebuild did not truly begin until July/August 2017 when they traded JD, JUp, JWilson & Alex A, and JV.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

Why do the chronic complainers not look at and consider the actual research ..and at least attempt to understand???

Because as chronic complainers that would eliminate their very reason for existing.

I'm capable of pissing and moaning as much as the next guy but I do try to remain reality based. 

I agree with your contention.

Once you learn of 337's expectations for me you'll know that my agreement with you means your credibility is shot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rebuild started  the day we signed Zimmerman. And we won't spend significant $$ until he is gone....as in off the books gone...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tigrrfan said:

and that the current total rebuild did not truly begin until July/August 2017 when they traded JD, JUp, JWilson & Alex A, and JV.

Agreed. It wasn't a total rebuild until the moment JV agreed to the trade. If he had stayed it would have been a different looking strategy. It might have worked just as badly but I don't think it would have been the total plug pull it has been. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, it started with the Verlander trade. I think that was where we admitted that the window had closed. When you're trading away Hall of Fame talent, you're not trying to win anymore. I know there were questions about him at the time, but I don't think you trade Justin Verlander if you're trying to win or actively trying to keep fans interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“Almost daily, ..no .. ..definitely every - single - day  ..I continue to see and read an enormous number of negative & resentful posts on numerous Detroit Tiger discussion sites where (so-called) Detroit Tiger fans are very disgusted (even angry, as if loathing in self-pity) ...”

Frankly, the team sucks out loud! Who cares when the rebuild started! Until proven otherwise, the organization sucks out loud! The org is a joke. Fans feel betrayed. What on earth do you expect to hear and read?! Fans are just fed up with losing and the team playing crap baseball. So for being upset at a garbage effort, you’re saying they’re “so-called” fans? “Loathing in self-pity.” 🙄 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, 1776 said:

“Almost daily, ..no .. ..definitely every - single - day  ..I continue to see and read an enormous number of negative & resentful posts on numerous Detroit Tiger discussion sites where (so-called) Detroit Tiger fans are very disgusted (even angry, as if loathing in self-pity) ...”

Frankly, the team sucks out loud! Who cares when the rebuild started! Until proven otherwise, the organization sucks out loud! The org is a joke. Fans feel betrayed. What on earth do you expect to hear and read?! Fans are just fed up with losing and the team playing crap baseball. So for being upset at a garbage effort, you’re saying they’re “so-called” fans? “Loathing in self-pity.” 🙄 

 

Prices should reflect the fact that the Tigers are fielding a AAA team.

And I forgot about those earlier Avila signings. To go along with the non- productive players he signed last off-season. And we re-signed him. It's obvious we're going to try and lose for the next 2 or 3 years. Until all expensive players are off the books and we can accumulate a lot of early round picks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And we wonder why fans are fed up???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

I'm outraged.

I could tell by the tone of your voice. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, 1776 said:

I could tell by the tone of your voice. 

lol.   I'm as frustrated as anyone but have come to look at it as a successful tank and am determined to enjoy the small victories, seeing new players get their chance and hopefully see some glimmers of a better future.   If none of that happens I'm blessed to have an unlimited supply of good ganja so it's all good.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rebuild began in earnest when we cut that looser Adduci loose

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Lei Pong said:

The rebuild began in earnest when we cut that looser Adduci loose

Oh my.....you've stepped in it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

...you'll know that my agreement with you means your credibility is shot.

My credibility was already shot anyway.  Let folks fire away!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Agreed. It wasn't a total rebuild until the moment JV agreed to the trade. If he had stayed it would have been a different looking strategy. It might have worked just as badly but I don't think it would have been the total plug pull it has been. 

Whatever term anyone wants to use ..whether reboot, retool, rebuild, 'tank', or whatever .. it remains my opinion they should not have traded home-grown face-of-the-franchise Justin Verlander.   Would have been better off DFA'ing Miguel Cabrera.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tigrrfan said:

Whatever term anyone wants to use ..whether reboot, retool, rebuild, 'tank', or whatever .. it remains my opinion they should not have traded home-grown face-of-the-franchise Justin Verlander.   Would have been better off DFA'ing Miguel Cabrera.

Moving JV was handled poorly in my opinion. I agree with your comment. Cabrera is a problem from now until he’s gone. Shame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 1776 said:

“Almost daily, ..no .. ..definitely every - single - day  ..I continue to see and read an enormous number of negative & resentful posts on numerous Detroit Tiger discussion sites where (so-called) Detroit Tiger fans are very disgusted (even angry, as if loathing in self-pity) ...”

Frankly, the team sucks out loud! Who cares when the rebuild started! Until proven otherwise, the organization sucks out loud! The org is a joke. Fans feel betrayed. What on earth do you expect to hear and read?! Fans are just fed up with losing and the team playing crap baseball. So for being upset at a garbage effort, you’re saying they’re “so-called” fans? “Loathing in self-pity.” 🙄 

 

To be sure ..not every complaint or negative opinion is resentful and many are as true as can be.  But for some to go out of their way in a resentful manner and go on and on ad-nauseam day-after-day  ..seemingly loathing in self-pity (and surely you know there is a difference between 'negativity' and 'loathing') ..then perhaps such folk might consider taking a break from baseball and find something in life that is more enjoyable to them.  

Greene and Boyd have been fun to watch ..as have (recently anyway) Jacoby Jones, Victor Reyes, Jeimer Candalario, and Harold Castro.  Over the past 30 days ..Miggy is batting .338 and Nick .337 (albeit both w/no power.)

Young (age) MiLB pitching prospects Casey Mize (22) and Matt Manning (21) have been brilliant.  And Alex Faedo (23), Tarik Skubal (22), and Beau Burrows (22) continue to show promising progress ..as do position/hitting prospects Willi Castro (22),  Jake Rogers (24),  Isaac Paredes (22), Jake Robson (24), and Daz Cameron (22.)  No ..not 'great' ..but good to very good considering their youth ..and all could make the MLB roster between 2020 and mid-2022.  And there still remain under-20 players Parker Meadows, Winceel Perez, and Riley Greene who any one or more could conceivably add to the MLB roster within 3 years.

The Tigers will likely continue to stink throughout 2019 ..and perhaps all of 2020 too.  But 2021 could easily begin to see the MLB team improving to .500 or better competitiveness.

 

...The point is ..the Tiger organization is not ALL negative.  There are signs of progress that can be clearly seen if folks would just look for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fans are using the term "rebuild" interchangeably with "losing."  The Tigers have had losing seasons in 4 of their last 5 years. We can argue back and forth on whether or not they were "trying," but the fact of the matter is that the Tiger fans are tired of all the losing.  We were spoiled during the span of 2006-2014 in that they only had 1 losing season. Tiger fans do not want a repeat of 1989-2005 when they had 2 of 17 seasons that they were above .500.  Therefore, they are going to say the "rebuild" started when the losing started.  Where can we pinpoint the exact moment that the "rebuild" started before 2006? And what term should we call the years of losing before the actual rebuild?  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

 And what term should we call the years of losing before the actual rebuild?  

the Dombrowski Decline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

Fans are using the term "rebuild" interchangeably with "losing."  The Tigers have had losing seasons in 4 of their last 5 years. We can argue back and forth on whether or not they were "trying," but the fact of the matter is that the Tiger fans are tired of all the losing.  We were spoiled during the span of 2006-2014 in that they only had 1 losing season. Tiger fans do not want a repeat of 1989-2005 when they had 2 of 17 seasons that they were above .500.  Therefore, they are going to say the "rebuild" started when the losing started.  Where can we pinpoint the exact moment that the "rebuild" started before 2006? And what term should we call the years of losing before the actual rebuild?  

The rebuild that led to 2006 is not hard to date. It started with Randy Smith's firing in 2002.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gehringer_2 said:

The rebuild that led to 2006 is not hard to date. It started with Randy Smith's firing in 2002.

So the period of time between 1989-2001 is what then?  A period of nothingness?  How do we know if we are in a true rebuild right now or another period of nothingness?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

So the period of time between 1989-2001 is what then?  A period of nothingness?  How do we know if we are in a true rebuild right now or another period of nothingness?  

forever known as the Higgy years.  and as forgettable as he has become to the Tiger's organization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like others have said I think the rebuild officially got on its way with the Verlander trade with that said I do think if Mr. I didn't get involved that it would have started with the deadline deals of 2015.   I think Avila was committed to rebuilding from the start and if he had his way we wouldn't have signed Zimm, Upton and went for it in 2016 and 17.

On top of not signing those players I think more of our guys would have been dealt sooner namely Kinsler and JD.    Not sure about Verlander cause if I recall people were really down on his contract between 15-16 so he might not have gotten much(even less than what we ended up getting) so he may not have been traded then.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

So the period of time between 1989-2001 is what then?  A period of nothingness?  How do we know if we are in a true rebuild right now or another period of nothingness?  

"Period of nothingness" - good phrase  - I like it.

-and-

We don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...