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The 2020 Presidential Race

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7 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

For your average 'independent', which is the group that will determine the election, they don't go into an election already knowing they are voting for a D or an R.  For most of us on this forum, that's something we don't really have experience with.  Those people might look at a good economy and see the vast differences of the opponent as a threat to their day to day lives.

I really think this is key.... there are voters out there who may not like Trump all that much or think we would be better off without him, but may sit it out or even vote for him if they thought that one of the candidates would do something or propose changes that they thought might harm or radically alter the economy in a way they may not prefer.

Again, not making a judgment on whether it's right or wrong, but simply that these folks exist, they tend to show up and vote, and that I'd prefer that the Democrat be as competitive as possible with this group.

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5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

When did Biden supporters say they will boycott Sanders?

For the record, I'm admonishing your hypocrisy.

WTF is my hypocrisy? I will vote for anyone against Trump. I am not this "Bernie Bro" boogyeman you've created in your head. ****, I was even on the fence if I wanted Bernie or Warren not too long ago.

Here is the reality - you don't like Bernie's policies so you are desperately trying to find ways to discredit him by finding some niche group of his supporters that won't vote in a general election. 

Also - you asked for what he accomplished. I linked you a response. Let me know what you think.

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Just now, 313DetroitCity said:

WTF is my hypocrisy? I will vote for anyone against Trump. I am not this "Bernie Bro" boogyeman you've created in your head. ****, I was even on the fence if I wanted Bernie or Warren not too long ago.

Here is the reality - you don't like Bernie's policies so you are desperately trying to find ways to discredit him by finding some niche group of his supporters that won't vote in a general election. 

Also - you asked for what he accomplished. I linked you a response. Let me know what you think.

LMAO. I was a self described socialist before Bernie Bros made it chic. I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I've supported on this forum numerous times universal health care, free college tuition, gun control, etc. ****, I've gone so far as to say the US should join the EU and have stated numerous times here that the US should be more like Norway. For someone who is so good at digging up old posts to throw in their face, you sure missed the mark on this one. You can go back to 2016 where I spoke highly of Sanders. I do have an issue with the culture he created with his Bernie Bros which made me re-think my unwavering support for Sanders. This cult seems more intent on owning the establishment than what's good for the country. The hypocrisy is you calling out boomers who will vote for Trump if Sanders is the candidate when Bernie Bros have actually done the same thing and threaten to do it again.

I did look at your link and noticed one accomplished in 18 years and that's being generous. I'm not sure voting against Iraq is any accomplished legislation but I'll give it to him. Invading Afghanistan also seemed like a no brainer.

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

LMAO. I was a self described socialist before Bernie Bros made it chic. I voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016. I've supported on this forum numerous times universal health care, free college tuition, gun control, etc. ****, I've gone so far as to say the US should join the EU and have stated numerous times here that the US should be more like Norway. For someone who is so good at digging up old posts to throw in their face, you sure missed the mark on this one. You can go back to 2016 where I spoke highly of Sanders. I do have an issue with the culture he created with his Bernie Bros which made me re-think my unwavering support for Sanders. This cult seems more intent on owning the establishment than what's good for the country. The hypocrisy is you calling out boomers who will vote for Trump if Sanders is the candidate when Bernie Bros have actually done the same thing and threaten to do it again.

I did look at your link and noticed one accomplished in 18 years and that's being generous. I'm not sure voting against Iraq is any accomplished legislation but I'll give it to him. Invading Afghanistan also seemed like a no brainer.

So you voted for Bernie and still feel like he has accomplished nothing? Why'd you believe he was qualified in 2016?

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6 minutes ago, pfife said:

When I hear Bernie talking about all of the candidates having negative, before he really stepped in it and called being a woman a negative, he claimed his negative was that he was old.   His other negative is that he's a socialist.   I get that he's a democratic socialist, and I think that's important, but it's really not to vast swaths of the electorate.

I'm not sure what has changed in this country that would make it elect an openly socialist president.

I'd happily vote for Bernie, but I'd fear he will lose.

And, in absolutely all fairness, there's a pretty good chance that as time goes on, the stigma surrounding Democratic Socialism will fade. Especially given the progression of time, the progression of Millennials into older age brackets (ie. becoming more reliable voters), etc.

I just don't think we are there yet and that there's a lot of risk going in that particular direction in an election cycle where the better play is to make the election a referendum on the sitting President.

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1 minute ago, 313DetroitCity said:

So you voted for Bernie and still feel like he has accomplished nothing? Why'd you believe he was qualified in 2016?

Because I liked him better than Hillary Clinton at the time. I was enamored with a self proclaimed socialist and overlooked he's a career politician who wants us to believe he is a political outsider. The way the Bernie Bros tried to disrupt the DNC turned me off on the Bernie or Bust cult.

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1 hour ago, 313DetroitCity said:

This is the reason "ok boomer" became a thing on the internet. 

Boomers: We might vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot. So don't be selfish! Vote for Biden!

That’s not the argument. They are saying “others might be swayed to vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot.  If Biden is they vote for Biden”. 
 

Bernie Bros are largely admitting its Bernie or bust. 

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1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I really think this is key.... there are voters out there who may not like Trump all that much or think we would be better off without him, but may sit it out or even vote for him if they thought that one of the candidates would do something or propose changes that they thought might harm or radically alter the economy in a way they may not prefer.

Again, not making a judgment on whether it's right or wrong, but simply that these folks exist, they tend to show up and vote, and that I'd prefer that the Democrat be as competitive as possible with this group.

With all the impeachment news and history, this ties in with the Clinton impeachment too.  In hindsight most probably will say that was a referendum of one side saying how morally corrupt the president was vs "it was just a *******".  But that wasn't the argument back then, the democratic talking points were along the lines of 'we don't condone his behavior, but you don't have to like the man, just judge him on the economy'.  It worked.  Republican support for Trump, assuming the economy is still good, will be right along these lines and it'll be tougher for a candidate seen as another extreme to get those closer to center votes.

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2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Lets not forget Bernie Sanders lost to one of the worst candidates by 3 million votes. 

Very salient point. 

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2 hours ago, Shelton said:

Times are different now. For one thing, I don’t think the 18-35 crowd actually did get in line behind Clinton in 2016. Didn’t you vote for a third party candidate, for example? If not you, we know there were plenty that did. But the other major difference is that in 2016 we hadn’t just lived through 4 years of right-wing propaganda and nazis and emboldened racists. Not to mention, Clinton was still the clear “favorite” in the race, so it may have felt more safe to cast that third party vote or just not show up. 
 

Shame on any left-leaning voter that doesn’t show up and vote for the nominee. Such action is frankly inexcusable. 
 

On the other hand, there are still a lot of semi-privileged moderate folks out there that could simply look at their own life and think things have gone just fine for them over the past four years, and the kind of stuff being put forth by Bernie is just too much. 
 

When you have a person like Donald trump running, it makes sense to me that appealing to the moderate boomer types is a good strategy. Seems like there is more to lose by going too far left than there is to lose by shifting toward the center.

I think that the problem in this race is not so much that the candidates in the center are in the center, it's that they are not very good candidates. A much younger, energetic and coherent Biden got zero traction in previous presidential attempts and now presents as only slightly more capable of discourse in English than the Orange Scourge. Klobuchar has earned her spurs in a very small rodeo and while I have no qualms about her ultimate competence, her personality profile simply lacks leadership properties and her rhetoric lacks any animating spirit. Mayor Pete mishandled race relations in Indianapolis, and there is probably no more important piece for a democrat to get right. I get the feeling that a Mitch Landreau or even a Gretchen Wittmer with just a couple more years under her belt could have swept the floor against this bunch.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

I think that the problem in this race is not so much that the candidates in the center are in the center, it's that they are not very good candidates. A much younger, energetic and coherent Biden got zero traction in previous presidential attempts and now presents as only slightly more capable of discourse in English than the Orange Scourge. Klobuchar has earned her spurs in a very small rodeo and while I have no qualms about her ultimate competence, her personality profile simply lacks leadership properties and her rhetoric lacks any animating spirit. Mayor Pete mishandled race relations in Indianapolis, and there is probably no more important piece for a democrat to get right. I get the feeling that even a Gretchen Wittmer with just a few more years under her belt could have swept the floor against this bunch.

I honestly dont understand why his previous attempts (especially 2008, where everyone not named Clinton, Edwards or Obama was cannon fodder) matter more than his role as Obama's VP when ascertaining his quality as a candidate.

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Just now, mtutiger said:

I honestly dont understand why his previous attempts (especially 2008, where everyone not named Clinton, Edwards or Obama was cannon fodder) matter more than his role as Obama's VP when ascertaining his quality as a candidate.

Of course it matters. It's a measure of *his* ability to pull votes. No credit accrues to him for his vote generating potential for being on Obama's under card. It's like signing the backup catcher from last yrs WS winner and expecting it to make you a playoff contender.

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

It's a measure of *his* ability to pull votes.

You know what else is? The 2020 Primaries. There's a not-at-all insignificant chance he wins more votes than Bernie or Warren this season. 

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Biden has much more name recognition than he did in 2008. His candidacy is to defeat Trump. He's basically running as a one term president to clean up Trump's mess. 

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1 hour ago, mtutiger said:

I just don't think we are there yet 

Of course the truth in politics is that we never think we are somewhere until after we have arrived. The conventional wisdom is always a lagging indicator of current reality. You can be sure reality has already changed from what we assume it is now, but we just don't know in what direction yet.

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8 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Biden has much more name recognition than he did in 2008. His candidacy is to defeat Trump. He's basically running as a one term president to clean up Trump's mess. 

It's not like losing a primary and serving as VP before winning a Presidential election has never been done before. (GHWB)

 

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2 hours ago, mtutiger said:

You know what else is? The 2020 Primaries. There's a not-at-all insignificant chance he wins more votes than Bernie or Warren this season. 

I would be a lot more confident if any one of these candidates at some point would at least poll a majority of their own party. To me Warren still has the best overall profile to get to "win" - but she has boxed herself in on policy detail and doesn't seem to know how to pivot back to better positions. It's frustrating to me in that I read her as quite fundamentally different than Bernie. Bernie does want to break the furniture in the Federal Gov and I will not argue that that may be a bridge too far for many Americans - very possibly enough to prevent his election even against Trump. But to me Warren is much more the reformer that simply wants a set better rules to the existing game. But she has been unable to make the distinction between that and Bernie's break the china socialism and if she can't, I don't think she can win either.

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7 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Of course the truth in politics is that we never think we are somewhere until after we have arrived. The conventional wisdom is always a lagging indicator of current reality. You can be sure reality has already changed from what we assume it is now, but we just don't know in what direction yet.

I'd argue I'm not the one arguing the conventional wisdom at the moment 

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2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'd argue I'm not the one arguing the conventional wisdom at the moment 

Just a general statement of principle. No target implied.

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Jeez. 

I’m a boomer.....OK?  Man, the way all boomers are dumped into one basket is really getting... shall I say it? OLD.

I just wrote a bunch more, then deleted it, because, you know... “ok, boomer”.

Very disheartening to see and read.  Very.

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2 hours ago, smr-nj said:

Jeez. 

I’m a boomer.....OK?  Man, the way all boomers are dumped into one basket is really getting... shall I say it? OLD.

I just wrote a bunch more, then deleted it, because, you know... “ok, boomer”.

Very disheartening to see and read.  Very.

I've said it many time in many different ways, but the liberal boomer's cross to bear is that while it was our cohort that drove culture for 50 years, it was our conservative brothers and sisters that were always the (mostly silent) majority and for maybe the 1st times on our lives we are no longer able to insulate ourselves from their influence.

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I will say, while I do think Trump has a chance against Warren or Sanders, but no chance against anyone else, this next election is probably the most likely chance for progressives to actually get one of their folks in.  So I do understand the want/push for them from their supporters.  

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I wouldn't be obsessed with trying to get a progressive in the presidency. What will likely happen is there will be a red wave in 2022 and potential for the progressive to be one and done in 2024. It's going to take a generation or two to move to a more progressive country. 

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I agree.  Change is more likely to be gradual than seismic, and as Oblong pointed out, a decent chunk of the next presidency is going to be cleaning up the mess in aisle 7.

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