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The 2020 Presidential Race

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Bernie Sanders has been in DC for about 30 some years. His cult seems to fashion him as some sort of outsider. Has Bernie ever actually worked in the private sector? What exactly has Bernie accomplished in his 30 some years in DC?

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48 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Do you believe that suburban moderates, most suburban especially women, who voted for candidates like Gretchen Whitmer or Haley Stevens in Michigan, Tony Evers in Wisconsin, Tom Wolf in Pennsylvania in 2018, etc. will suddenly shift back to Trump and/or stay home if Bernie Sanders is the nominee? Are the ideas of debt free college for their kids/grandkids, universal childcare, M4A, a humble foreign policy, corporate accountability, a federal jobs guarantee really so scary that they'd vote or stay home to keep Trump in office? Would it be some video clip from 1982 about Sanders talking about Daniel Ortega and the Sandistas (the average person thinks a Sandista is the person who makes your drink at Starbucks) or some other dirt dug up by Republicans that does it? The Democratic-Socialism label?

Conversely, the 18-35 crowd was told to shut up and get in line behind Hillary in 2016 and they watched as she lost to Donald Trump. I don't know that you can get them in line two election cycles in a row if Biden is the nominee.

I didn't think the Bernie Bros would shift to Trump or stay home but they did. It never was about defeating Trump. It's about owning the establishment. Bernie Bros were pushing that nutcase Jill Stein who happened to be a Russian asset. Tulsi was one of Sanders first supporters and left the DNC and whined about it being rigged. She happens to be a Russian asset too. Seems to be some Russian assets in Bernie's orbit...

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1 hour ago, pfife said:

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but it seems like a long shot.  Public figure, and if I remember correctly, Hillary didn't actually name her.   I don't know how important that is, but I believe that's a fact.

Also, and maybe a lawyer could confirm this for me, but I believe speaking the truth is a valid defense in a libel suit.

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Do you believe that suburban moderates, most suburban especially women, who voted for candidates like Gretchen Whitmer or Haley Stevens in Michigan, Tony Evers in Wisconsin, Tom Wolf in Pennsylvania in 2018, etc. will suddenly shift back to Trump and/or stay home if Bernie Sanders is the nominee? Are the ideas of debt free college for their kids/grandkids, universal childcare, M4A, a humble foreign policy, corporate accountability, a federal jobs guarantee really so scary that they'd vote or stay home to keep Trump in office? Would it be some video clip from 1982 about Sanders talking about Daniel Ortega and the Sandistas (the average person thinks a Sandista is the person who makes your drink at Starbucks) or some other dirt dug up by Republicans that does it? The Democratic-Socialism label?

I don't think most suburban moderates associate themselves with Democratic Socialism, no. And I think there's this tendency amongst some, whether it be confirmation bias or some other phenomena, that seems to be unwilling to recognize the very existence of any risk whatsoever in nominating someone with which those labels fit. Further, there's also a tendency to believe that suburban moderates would both turn out and vote for a ham sandwich over Trump, whereas younger voters would not do the same.

I'm just giving my perspective.... I'm on the higher end of 18-35 and also have the benefit of living in suburbia. Sanders is a risky bet amongst the suburban crowd. It'd be nice, just for one second, to have those risks acknowledged by those who prefer someone like Sanders over Biden.

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1 hour ago, smr-nj said:

... then, they’ll get the government they deserve.

I think what gets me is the implication that younger voters will not turnout adequately if it's not their candidate, yet more moderate voters  (who tend to be GenX or older) will turnout and pull the lever for someone who may be too far to the left of the spectrum as they may be.

I see this implication *a lot* by those supporting the more left-wing candidates in this race, but I never hear a good explanation for why this is the reality.

At the end of the day, I tend to think Donald Trump is going to single-handedly drive turnout on both sides of this race, regardless of whether it's someone like Biden or Sanders as the nominee. But I find it frustrating that some just simply wave away any of the liabilities that a Sanders would bring to a general election matchup as if those liabilities don't exist.

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Lets not forget Bernie Sanders lost to one of the worst candidates by 3 million votes. If he wins Iowa, it's going to be with less than 30% of the vote.

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Lets not forget Bernie Sanders lost to one of the worst candidates by 3 million votes. If he wins Iowa, it's going to be with less than 30% of the vote.

Let's not forget that Biden lost to Clinton in 2008. And dropped out before Bill Richardson and John Edwards.

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Do you believe that suburban moderates, most suburban especially women, who voted for candidates like Gretchen Whitmer or Haley Stevens in Michigan, Tony Evers in Wisconsin, Tom Wolf in Pennsylvania in 2018, etc. will suddenly shift back to Trump and/or stay home if Bernie Sanders is the nominee? Are the ideas of debt free college for their kids/grandkids, universal childcare, M4A, a humble foreign policy, corporate accountability, a federal jobs guarantee really so scary that they'd vote or stay home to keep Trump in office? Would it be some video clip from 1982 about Sanders talking about Daniel Ortega and the Sandistas (the average person thinks a Sandista is the person who makes your drink at Starbucks) or some other dirt dug up by Republicans that does it? The Democratic-Socialism label?

Conversely, the 18-35 crowd was told to shut up and get in line behind Hillary in 2016 and they watched as she lost to Donald Trump. I don't know that you can get them in line two election cycles in a row if Biden is the nominee.

Times are different now. For one thing, I don’t think the 18-35 crowd actually did get in line behind Clinton in 2016. Didn’t you vote for a third party candidate, for example? If not you, we know there were plenty that did. But the other major difference is that in 2016 we hadn’t just lived through 4 years of right-wing propaganda and nazis and emboldened racists. Not to mention, Clinton was still the clear “favorite” in the race, so it may have felt more safe to cast that third party vote or just not show up. 
 

Shame on any left-leaning voter that doesn’t show up and vote for the nominee. Such action is frankly inexcusable. 
 

On the other hand, there are still a lot of semi-privileged moderate folks out there that could simply look at their own life and think things have gone just fine for them over the past four years, and the kind of stuff being put forth by Bernie is just too much. 
 

When you have a person like Donald trump running, it makes sense to me that appealing to the moderate boomer types is a good strategy. Seems like there is more to lose by going too far left than there is to lose by shifting toward the center.

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

When you have a person like Donald trump running, it makes sense to me that appealing to the moderate boomer types is a good strategy. Seems like there is more to lose by going too far left than there is to lose by shifting toward the center.

Adding nothing but bolding this from Shelton.  This couldn't be more correct.

 

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4 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

Adding nothing but bolding this from Shelton.  This couldn't be more correct.

 

This is the reason "ok boomer" became a thing on the internet. 

Boomers: We might vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot. So don't be selfish! Vote for Biden!

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That's what I largely feel too, but I also think the energized voter argument is legitimate.

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3 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Times are different now. For one thing, I don’t think the 18-35 crowd actually did get in line behind Clinton in 2016. Didn’t you vote for a third party candidate, for example? If not you, we know there were plenty that did. But the other major difference is that in 2016 we hadn’t just lived through 4 years of right-wing propaganda and nazis and emboldened racists. Not to mention, Clinton was still the clear “favorite” in the race, so it may have felt more safe to cast that third party vote or just not show up. 
 

Shame on any left-leaning voter that doesn’t show up and vote for the nominee. Such action is frankly inexcusable. 
 

On the other hand, there are still a lot of semi-privileged moderate folks out there that could simply look at their own life and think things have gone just fine for them over the past four years, and the kind of stuff being put forth by Bernie is just too much. 
 

When you have a person like Donald trump running, it makes sense to me that appealing to the moderate boomer types is a good strategy. Seems like there is more to lose by going too far left than there is to lose by shifting toward the center.

Yup. Whether you agree with the approach they take or not, these folks do exist and they tend to be very reliable voters.... Sanders is pretty risky with this crowd.

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I'm glad I like all of them.   At some point I think it's really a situation where when you look at what a president can actually do unilaterally (which is really what we should probably be focusing on), they're probably going to do relatively similar things.

Really, anything legislative is nice to hear, and we can get a sense of the candidates philosophy & what not, but unless we have huge majorities in the legislative branch, I don't know that it's worth tearing each other down over.

 

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5 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

This is the reason "ok boomer" became a thing on the internet. 

Boomers: We might vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot. So don't be selfish! Vote for Biden!

Bernie Bros: We will boycott the election if Biden is the nominee. Make sure Bernie is the nominee or we will let Trump win.

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2 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

This is the reason "ok boomer" became a thing on the internet. 

Boomers: We might vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot. So don't be selfish! Vote for Biden!

It's not just that they might vote for Trump, it's that they may not vote at all.  I don't want to see Trump re-elected, but as someone that leans right, Warren/Sanders certainly aren't going to get me to jump out of bed to vote that day.

For your average 'independent', which is the group that will determine the election, they don't go into an election already knowing they are voting for a D or an R.  For most of us on this forum, that's something we don't really have experience with.  Those people might look at a good economy and see the vast differences of the opponent as a threat to their day to day lives.

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13 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

This is the reason "ok boomer" became a thing on the internet. 

Boomers: We might vote for Trump if Bernie is on the ballot. So don't be selfish! Vote for Biden!

You can "OK Boomer" all you want, but it really doesn't solve the fact that Boomers vote and, even in the absolute best case scenario in terms of younger voter turnout, will vote at much higher levels than younger voters will. I, again, say this as an 18-35.

It is what it is.... the leading contenders have specific groups that they excel with and struggle with and, all of them, in order to put themselves in the best position in November, will have some work to do in reaching out to the groups that they don't do great with. I think the debate falls on who one believes would have more work to do in this regard.

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3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Bernie Bros: We will boycott the election if Biden is the nominee. Make sure Bernie is the nominee or we will let Trump win.

So when do you plan to take on these moderate Biden supporters over their threats that they might vote for Trump and/or not vote if Bernie is the nominee? 

Or is it just "Bernie Bros" you hate?

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Just now, mtutiger said:

You can "OK Boomer" all you want, but it really doesn't solve the fact that Boomers vote and, even in the absolute best case scenario in terms of younger voter turnout, will vote a much higher levels than younger voters will. I, again, say this as an 18-35.

It is what it is.... the leading contenders have specific groups that they excel with and struggle with and, all of them, in order to put themselves in the best position in November, will have some work to do in reaching out to the groups that they don't do great with. 

I just find it incredibly ironic that boomers simultaneously admonish Bernie supporters for staying home while also vaguely threatening that they might stay home if he is the nominee. 

For the record - I will vote for anyone who is up against Trump. 

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2 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

So when do you plan to take on these moderate Biden supporters over their threats that they might vote for Trump and/or not vote if Bernie is the nominee? 

Or is it just "Bernie Bros" you hate?

Bernie Bros are threatening to do the same exact thing. I'm taking on both of them.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/people-will-sit-at-home-sanders-supporters-threaten-to-boycott-vote-if-democrats-nominate-a-centrist

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Just now, Motown Bombers said:

Where is your post admonishing Biden supporters? I haven't seen them. 

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Just now, 313DetroitCity said:

I just find it incredibly ironic that boomers simultaneously admonish Bernie supporters for staying home while also vaguely threatening that they might stay home if he is the nominee. 

For the record - I will vote for anyone who is up against Trump. 

So will I.

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3 minutes ago, 313DetroitCity said:

Where is your post admonishing Biden supporters? I haven't seen them. 

When did Biden supporters say they will boycott Sanders?

For the record, I'm admonishing your hypocrisy.

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Just now, Motown Bombers said:

MB, you just don't understand though.  Bernie Bros are doing it because anyone that disagrees with them is evil.  So for them to do it, it's right and just.  The others that do it, it's because they are bad.   (crazy how Bernie Bros are so similar to MAGA folks in terms of ideation, yet so vastly different in those ideas and thoughts).

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I'm probably one of the most liberal people on this board, so it's obvious where I feel about my own politics,

but I'm in my middle age now and I've yet to see a TRUE liberal win the presidency.  It's hard for me to believe that's the path to victory when I've never seen it be that before.   I've seen multiple moderates win before.

When I hear Bernie talking about all of the candidates having negative, before he really stepped in it and called being a woman a negative, he claimed his negative was that he was old.   His other negative is that he's a socialist.   I get that he's a democratic socialist, and I think that's important, but it's really not to vast swaths of the electorate.

I'm not sure what has changed in this country that would make it elect an openly socialist president.

I'd happily vote for Bernie, but I'd fear he will lose.

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