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chasfh

The 2020 Presidential Race

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3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Voting with the other party and against your own party 60% of the time should be acceptable to the party?

I can understand why many in the party would have issues with that.

Well, it's not voting against them 60% of the time since most Democratic senators vote with Trump 30% of the time. This is West Virginia. Your other option is voting with Trump 95% of the time. If this were California, then it wouldn't be acceptable. 

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

this a agree with totally. It's the old saw about bringing a knife to a gunfight. What I remember of gaming theory said that when someone breaks the taboos, you accept the first blow and take the high ground. If they persist the most successful strategy is to hit them with everything you have.

There were lots of ads in the 2012 Presidential cycle, but ad I posted yesterday where Romney was singing America the Beautiful as it echoed through empty factories and corporate boardrooms and the ads where Obama had workers that had been laid off after Rommey's vulture capital firm took the company over were the best. What Obama did to Romney in 2012 is the pathway forward for ruthlessly branding the Republicans. Cold, sterile, out of touch with working Americans, for the rich and by the rich. The economy is in bad enough shape that Democrats can use us versus them in a class warfare manner the same way Republicans have done it on race and religion.

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what we really need is a multi party system so joe manchin and aoc, and mitt romney and donald trump dont have to be in the same party.

 

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1 minute ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Reality is always about the available options. Isn't 50-60% better than 0? How does the DNC gain by having one more officeholder declared in full opposition?

Yes it is. But if this entire line of discussion is about criticizing AOC for throwing shade on Manchin, I'm just saying, I can still see why she and others in the party are unhappy with him. Let her throw shade. So what.

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Just now, chasfh said:

Yes it is. But if this entire line of discussion is about criticizing AOC for throwing shade on Manchin, I'm just saying, I can still see why she and others in the party are unhappy with him. Let her throw shade. So what.

thank you

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1 minute ago, Buddha said:

what we really need is a multi party system so joe manchin and aoc, and mitt romney and donald trump dont have to be in the same party.

 

We dont have that option in the US as nice as it would be.

So Dems need to just NOT be Republicans lol. Which they seem to find hard to do. Im cringing at all this talk about America "being back in the world" or whatever that means. Do we get to drone people again and claim to be antiwar?

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1 minute ago, FloridaTigers said:

How about run on things that will appeal to them? Bernie won WV in the primaries. Maybe a Democratic party that talks about strengthening unions, ensuring Medicare for all, connecting towns to cities and helping defeat the opioid epidemic would go further then whatever tax breaks or whatever Schumer and Pelosi have been peddling for a decade to voters. 

Yep! We run on the same, stale, half-baked agenda time and time again suffer electoral defeat after electoral defeat. Was it the fault of progressive messaging in in 2010, 2012, 2014 when Democrats couldn't recapture the House and Senate? Also, someone ought take a look at Pelosi and Schumer's win-loss records and revaluate the current leadership of the party. It seems to me folks like Sherrod Brown and Karen Bass would be more reflexive of the current state of the party and where we want to go into the future.

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4 minutes ago, FloridaTigers said:

How about run on things that will appeal to them? Bernie won WV in the primaries. Maybe a Democratic party that talks about strengthening unions, ensuring Medicare for all, connecting towns to cities and helping defeat the opioid epidemic would go further then whatever tax breaks or whatever Schumer and Pelosi have been peddling for a decade to voters. 

Unlike Joe Manchin, who has actually won general elections in West Virginia, Bernie would get his *** kicked in a general election in West Virginia. He'd probably lose it worse than Biden did this year.

It's nothing personal, but the message *does not work* everywhere.

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Yes it is. But if this entire line of discussion is about criticizing AOC for throwing shade on Manchin, I'm just saying, I can still see why she and others in the party are unhappy with him. Let her throw shade. So what.

It's why Republicans win elections and Democrats don't. Unfortunately, Manchin isn't the only one she's throwing shade at. She's throwing shade at other moderates and not helping them win elections. 

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4 minutes ago, Buddha said:

what we really need is a multi party system so joe manchin and aoc, and mitt romney and donald trump dont have to be in the same party.

 

Until we get a rid of the Electoral College, that'll never happen.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Yep! We run on the same, stale, half-baked agenda time and time again suffer electoral defeat after electoral defeat. Was it the fault of progressive messaging in in 2010, 2012, 2014 when Democrats couldn't recapture the House and Senate? Also, someone ought take a look at Pelosi and Schumer's win-loss records and revaluate the current leadership of the party. It seems to me folks like Sherrod Brown and Karen Bass would be more reflexive of the current state of the party and where we want to go into the future.

it was always going to be lose-lose

Biden won? Clearly the appeal to RINOs and corporate moderates worked!

Biden lost? Its AOC's fault, that extremism cost the Dems!

When you have an in-between result where Biden wins and seats lost? Then you claim both at the same time!

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2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Unlike Joe Manchin, who has actually won general elections in West Virginia, Bernie would get his *** kicked in a general election in West Virginia. He'd probably lose it worse than Biden did this year.

It's nothing personal, but the message *does not work* everywhere.

the idea of rolling over to Manchin isn't going to work in the Bronx either.   I'm intrigued as to why only one side catches heat here though when clearly they're both acting out of similar political pressure.

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2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Unlike Joe Manchin, who has actually won general elections in West Virginia, Bernie would get his *** kicked in a general election in West Virginia. He'd probably lose it worse than Biden did this year.

It's nothing personal, but the message *does not work* everywhere.

Sure. But WV is one state lol. Why are you to assume what doesn't work in WV will fail in every other state? Maybe the goal shouldn't be to win WV but slowly and surely offer them a promising alternative and maybe, just maybe, get them to lean in your direction in future elections or at the local level 🤔 

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5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's why Republicans win elections and Democrats don't. Unfortunately, Manchin isn't the only one she's throwing shade at. She's throwing shade at other moderates and not helping them win elections. 

Are you really trying to sell me the idea that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez throwing shade at Joe Manchin is a mortal threat to the Democratic Party, and a direct cause for their losing elections? If that's what you're doing then sorry, not buying. I don't see West Virginia voters sprinting to the polls in 2022 to turn out Joe Manchin besides AOC is icily staring at him in 2020.

Come on.

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3 minutes ago, pfife said:

the idea of rolling over to Manchin isn't going to work in the Bronx either.   I'm intrigued as to why only one side catches heat here though when clearly they're both acting out of similar political pressure.

Because AOC has an outsized profile that reaches outside of her district and into the zeitgeist of politics in this country, whereas Manchin doesn't?

I'm all for AOC repping the politics that she wants to rep for her district, but I spent the fall watching teevee during the morning news and seeing ads with her name plastered on them being used against federal and state house district candidates... and she was a liability. She just was.

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4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

It's why Republicans win elections and Democrats don't. Unfortunately, Manchin isn't the only one she's throwing shade at. She's throwing shade at other moderates and not helping them win elections. 

If they don't like what millennial or other young progressive Dems are offering, they can always just be Republicans. Don't these moderates love Reagan so much anyways?

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9 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Yes it is. But if this entire line of discussion is about criticizing AOC for throwing shade on Manchin, I'm just saying, I can still see why she and others in the party are unhappy with him. Let her throw shade. So what.

throw shade at the republicans, not fellow democrats.

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3 minutes ago, FloridaTigers said:

If they don't like what millennial or other young progressive Dems are offering, they can always just be Republicans. Don't these moderates love Reagan so much anyways?

This is the attitude that leads to 160 seats in the House and less than 44 in the Senate.

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2 minutes ago, FloridaTigers said:

Sure. But WV is one state lol. Why are you to assume what doesn't work in WV will fail in every other state? Maybe the goal shouldn't be to win WV but slowly and surely offer them a promising alternative and maybe, just maybe, get them to lean in your direction in future elections or at the local level 🤔 

No one assumed that. What people are saying is let Manchin do what he needs to do to win West Virginia and let AOC do what she needs to do to win the Bronx. Manchin would never win AOC's district and AOC would never win West Virginia. Instead of AOC throwing shade at Manchin, which Manchin hasn't done to AOC, let him do what he needs to do. It's why Republicans are better at this than Democrats. 

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2 minutes ago, FloridaTigers said:

If they don't like what millennial or other young progressive Dems are offering, they can always just be Republicans. Don't these moderates love Reagan so much anyways?

See also, Corbyn J.

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6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Yes it is. But if this entire line of discussion is about criticizing AOC for throwing shade on Manchin, I'm just saying, I can still see why she and others in the party are unhappy with him. Let her throw shade. So what.

I guess I don't see what it gets her beside burnishing her virtue signalling credentials. Run in your district on what works in your district and go fight for it on the floor of the House, but what is the point of aiming your fire at people at least half on your side when there are so many that are full on the other side? I don't expect people in the same party on the opposite ends of the political spectrum to agree or even not to argue, but to criticise each other in a way that could make it harder to win re-election crosses the line to me. 

Of course in Manchin's case, AOC's opprobrium might actually be helpful electorially--  but speaking generally.......

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7 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Until we get a rid of the Electoral College, that'll never happen.

make it happen, mtu!

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Just now, Buddha said:

throw shade at the republicans, not fellow democrats.

Isn't that what she's really doing? :cheeky:

I don't see it as a big deal.

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2 minutes ago, FloridaTigers said:

If they don't like what millennial or other young progressive Dems are offering, they can always just be Republicans. Don't these moderates love Reagan so much anyways?

They don't like what she is offering and they voted for Republicans. Guess that really worked out well for Democrats? 

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1 minute ago, chasfh said:

Isn't that what she's really doing? :cheeky:

I don't see it as a big deal.

I know you're calling Manchin a Republican but Manchin voted to save Obamacare, impeach Trump, and against Amy Coney Barrett's confirmation. Capito did none of those things. Manchin isn't going to support Medicare for all or the Green New Deal, but neither is Capito. 

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