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The 2020 Presidential Race

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10 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This sorta goes a bit to Oblong's "Bill Burr" comment, but the Democratic Party would have more success in attracting more middle of the road voters if it would allow for heterodox views on some social issues (especially issues such as abortion and guns).

Put another way, the national brand of the party hurts in some parts of the country, and candidates need to be allowed to run on a slate of positions that will position them better to win in their states and/or districts. And it can be done successfully (see: John Bel Edwards in Louisiana)

I know many who voted third party this time because they didn't like the BLM protests/riots and didn't like how the left condoned the rioting/looting. "Defund the police" was a terrible slogan that turned a lot of people off.

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I knew Jones-Day sounded familiar and it turns out that is the firm that Kevyn Orr, former emergency financial manager of Detroit, belongs to. 

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I disagree if Democrats just became more socially conservative they would win. They will be tried to the national parties stance or the most liberal democrats out there. Same with BLM and defund the police most democrats dont support that but they get tied to them.

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21 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

This sorta goes a bit to Oblong's "Bill Burr" comment, but the Democratic Party would have more success in attracting more middle of the road voters if it would allow for heterodox views on some social issues (especially issues such as abortion and guns).

Put another way, the national brand of the party hurts in some parts of the country, and candidates need to be allowed to run on a slate of positions that will position them better to win in their states and/or districts. And it can be done successfully (see: John Bel Edwards in Louisiana)

AOC has to stop sticking her nose where she doesn't belong. What works in the Bronx doesn't work in Missouri or Western Pennsylvania.

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9 minutes ago, Buddha said:

amy kloubachar said the same thing and then naral and planned parenthood came down on her like a ton of bricks.

Yep.

Don't get me wrong, the same dichotomy exists with Republicans too, on many of the same issues even, but given the geographic distribution of the country, it absolutely kills Democrats to insist on conformity on a lot of issues.

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11 minutes ago, Buddha said:

i would argue to you that you are not representative of the majority of gop voters.  and as evidence for my assertion, i would direct your attention to all the republican house and senate nominees who are supporting trump in his lawsuits and his call that the election was fraudulent.

trump is extremely popular among republicans.  he always has been.

I have at least a half dozen friends who identify as Republican. They all supported Trump. They are all saying the voting was rigged. 

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3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I knew Jones-Day sounded familiar and it turns out that is the firm that Kevyn Orr, former emergency financial manager of Detroit, belongs to. 

jones day is one of the biggest corporate law firms in the country.  

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1 minute ago, CMRivdog said:

I have at least a half dozen friends who identify as Republican. They all supported Trump. They are all saying the voting was rigged. 

Yeah, I talked with the old man on Sunday... he's completely gone to the conspiracy theories too.

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I'm a recovering libertarian since 2013. You can read hundreds of my prior posts here from 2008-2012 that I would no longer stand behind and am not proud of as proof. My father worked at AT&T for nearly 30 years and retired damn near a millionaire with his 401k, savings, mutual funds, etc. He lost his house due to foreclosure in 2014 and lost every dime he had after retiring from AT&T due his 401k going up in flames and multiple crashes in the stock market wiping out everything else he had.

I finally came to a harsh realization that Fredrick Hayek, Ludwig Mises, Milton Friedman, Tom Woods, Murray Rothbard and all those other classic liberal/libertarians would tell someone like my father to kick rocks. They'd tell him it was his fault for not pulling his money out of the market sooner or would falsely proclaim if we just tied our money to gold again all his troubles would be gone. Worse than that, they'd call him a bum, tell him to get a job (at 71 years of age no less), and allow him to eat rats in the street if that's what it took not to have to raise taxes and have social welfare programs. These capitalists would burn down social security, get rid of Medicare, and scrap any last vestiges of food stamps and the welfare state that are keeping my dad subsisting.

Beyond my own father, I just stopped reading libertarian literature and think tank research 24/7 and realized how inhumane a lot of what these people were researching and writing about really was. I traded Heartland and Mises Institutes for Economic Policy Institute, Demos, and Center for American Progress. I traded Milton Friedman and Murray Rothbard for Robert Reich, Elizabeth Warren, Sarah Bloom-Raskin, and Noam Chomsky. It's pretty clear that our current casino capitalist system has consumed itself with greed, corruption, and has put profit ahead of the needs of people. We've become a corporate oligarchy in America and as a result of our harsh economic reality intermixed with the racism and phobias that still exist in this country, become a breeding ground for people like Donald Trump to take power.

If we don't addressing the underlying economic problems, like widening income inequality, an exploding wealth gap, a working class that continues to fall further behind, deregulation that has ravaged entire industries, a crumbling K-12 education system that fails to actually educate and enlighten, and a host of other problems that casino capitalism has created we're going to keep getting Donald Trump's in office. We're going to keep getting autocratic, nationalist-type people in office. Only next time, that person will be worse than Trump because they will be more politically skilled and not nearly as feckless and incompetent.

Like it or not, conservatives who hate Trump/autocracy and anyone who wants to save democracy in any form needs to accept drastic reforms to the casino capitalist system. They need to accept a Scandinavian model to social welfare, tax rates, education, and economic regulation. Taxes need to be drastically raised on the upper-middle class and top income earners of this country. We need to accept levels of taxation that the Danes and Swedes pay so we can invest in social welfare at a greater rate as they do. We need to prevent people, families, and entire generations from falling through the cracks of society. Entire industrial monopolies need to be broken apart and re-regulated to give workers greater control. Unions need to regain power and strengthen collective bargaining power. More than that, workers need to make the workplace more democratic by having majority seats on corporate boards, being involved in  major corporate decisions like mergers and acquisitions, and more. At-will employment needs to be ended and firing an employee should require a long, lengthy process in which any employee, white or blue collar, is represented by a union/labor rep to negotiate on their behalf.  Military spending needs to be cut some 10-15-20% in favor of more social welfare spending. Education systems need to be reformatted and funding structures need to fundamentally change to produce equitable results across districts and communities. A climate that is literally melting, burning, and flooding around us needs to be saved with stringent regulations on energy production, what we consume, how we live our lives, meat consumption, human population numbers, and more.

If you think just getting rid of Trump, without having to enact sweeping reforms, solves the problem, then you'll just keep getting autocrats and nationalists rising to power. Only the next time one does take hold (Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Steve Bannon) they'll be a **** of a lot more effective and a **** of a lot worse. Reaganomics, Supply Side economics, classical conservative economic ideas around capitalism, they are dead. Greed, treating workers as nothing but a burdensome expense, and a lack of concern for human welfare killed them. A Scandinavian model with a robust social welfare state, a more cooperative model based around Democratic-Socialism, MMT theory, that's the future if you want to maintain democracy. If you're not willing to trade Milton Friedman and Stephen Moore for Robert Reich and Elizabeth Warren, then get ready to trade for Donald Trump for Steve Bannon when the next economic collapse happens.

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8 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

AOC has to stop sticking her nose where she doesn't belong. What works in the Bronx doesn't work in Missouri or Western Pennsylvania.

AOC will be tied to them no matter what. She will be the new Pelosi in attack ads.

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19 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I know many who voted third party this time because they didn't like the BLM protests/riots and didn't like how the left condoned the rioting/looting. "Defund the police" was a terrible slogan that turned a lot of people off.

Clyburn blames that slogan for jamie Harrison losing 

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1 minute ago, TigerFan1984 said:

AOC will be tied to them no matter what. She will be the new Pelosi in attack ads.

I understand, but she doesn't need to attack moderates in moderate districts and criticize how they run. 

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The slogan was really bad. I'm not sure it wouldn't have been tied to Democrats anyway though since democrats supported BLM and the slogan came from them

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2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I understand, but she doesn't need to attack moderates in moderate districts and criticize how they run. 

So does Abigail Spanberger need to attack progressives and say that we cost Democrats seats in the house?

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1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

So does Abigail Spanberger need to attack progressives and say that we cost Democrats seats in the house?

Yes. Their stupid Defund the Police cost suburban Democrats. If it wasn't for Trump, this would have been a red wave. The lack of messaging and message discipline with Trump is remarkable. Instead of telling us the celebrities he doesn't like, he could've played up the jobs not mobs attack. It's malpractice the Republicans didn't use that more. 

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These elections are nationalized now. The conservative Democrat example is a governor which still can go the opposite way of the states lean. Like MA and MD.

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12 minutes ago, Oblong said:

Clyburn blames that slogan for jamie Harrison losing 

I remember basically an entire episode of John Oliver's show being dedicated to "defund the police", which involved him explaining what the term actually meant (or how he perceived it) and how it wasn't as nefarious as opponents were making it out to be.

But isn't that the problem, that you need a liberal talking head to spend 20 minutes explaining what the term actually means?

Put another way, if you have to go to length explaining what a term means in order to defend it, it's probably not a good slogan and you probably need to retire it.

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1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Yes. Their stupid Defund the Police cost suburban Democrats. If it wasn't for Trump, this would have been a red wave. The lack of messaging and message discipline with Trump is remarkable. Instead of telling us the celebrities he doesn't like, he could've played up the jobs not mobs attack. It's malpractice the Republicans didn't use that more. 

Right but BLM and defund the police would have been tied to the democrats by the conservative media. Even if they denounce defund the police stuff. I heard people say Biden supports Antifa. Democrats are tied to black people.

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5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Yes. Their stupid Defund the Police cost suburban Democrats. If it wasn't for Trump, this would have been a red wave. The lack of messaging and message discipline with Trump is remarkable. Instead of telling us the celebrities he doesn't like, he could've played up the jobs not mobs attack. It's malpractice the Republicans didn't use that more. 

Did that messaging cost them seats or were these just red-leaning districts that came home to roost with Trump on the ballot and increased Republican turn out? How many truly purple, 50/50 districts did Democrats lose on Tuesday and how many were center-right, 55/45 red districts to begin with?

Example, Katie Porter is as leftist and left wing as they come and she held onto her once red, overwhelmingly Republican district by a solid margin.

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Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Did that messaging cost them seats or were these just red-leaning districts that came home to roost with Trump on the ballot and increased Republican turn out? How many truly purple, 50/50 districts did Democrats lose on Tuesday and how many were center-right, 55/45 red districts to begin with?

What does it matter? Democrats held these seats and lost because some progressives want to defund the police and anarchists took over sections of Seattle. 

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13 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Yeah, I talked with the old man on Sunday... he's completely gone to the conspiracy theories too.

The scariest one for me is a woman I respected until recently. Spent a lot of time with her in one of the bands I played with. She has strong Christian faith leanings but I never considered her going as far a the far right evangelicals. A daughter who graduated from one of the military academies a few years ago, another in health care.

The latest posts I see on FB has me concerned. Pro Trump, part of the crew talking about jumping to Parler. It’s very cultish 

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How is the democratic party suppose to control all these people and what they say does dumping on BLM lower turnout in cities like Detroit, Philly and Milwaukee you need those to win. How do Democrats thread the needle here.

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I think a candidate like Katie Porter in California and the fact that Florida passed a $15/hr minimum wage sets templates for how progressive candidates and progressive ideas can win in red-leaning districts and states. Katie Porter won re-election by a 6% margin in a district that once had Duncan Hunter and Dana Rohrabacher (obviously post gerrymandering) as it's representatives and hadn't had a Democrat elected to it since at least 1982, maybe prior to that.

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