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Greene / Boyd Trade Options

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Also, my take for the Tigers haul is that I love strike throwers.  I loved the Gallen deal for the DBacks, since Gallen has a history of strike throwing, and I think that those pitchers play above their stuff, since they locate their pitches so well; so my favorite pickup here is Richan of course.  Wentz has a history, and should be a back end starter.  Fangraphs also put it out  there that he has 70 grade raw power in case he has to hit.  Norris is probably a tic behind that, as his homerun in his first ab vs Jon Lester a couple of years ago would atest.  I have long admired Demeritte's skill set, he's got some nice tools as long as his contact rate is ok.  Demeritte hit 25 home runs as a 19 yo in a ball in 2014.  He's impressive.

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Also, I wonder if the Tigers could have received the Grienke haul from Houston for Boyd.  Just wondering.  That would have been a nice third trade.

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Factoring in contracts I think Boyd has more value than Greinke so I'd imagine the Tigers could've gotten that unless of course the Astros wanted the more proven commodity.  

With that said though I'm not sure how great of haul it was, I mean it's great for Az cause they got out of the Greinke contract as well but for Boyd I'm not sure id be happy with it.

It could turn out great if Beer turns into an elite hitter (since he's essentially a dh), Martin recovers from tj and JB and his 5+ minor league era bounce back but for 3+ years of Boyd I'd want more of a sure thing.

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People that are upset or ecstatic about these trades are either eternal optimists or Debbie downers.  In all likelihood it won't make any difference at all.

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9 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Crestfallen.

I had high hopes for today.   Now I feel like we are at the beginning of a long stretch of futility that may rival the pre-2006 years.   And unless Chris sells the team, I don't think anyone is buying our way out of it this time.   

Why can't this organization develop position players?   

 

What makes you think they can develop pitchers?

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11 minutes ago, gmoney said:

What makes you think they can develop pitchers?

Yeah they've done nothing but screw Boyd, Norris and Turnbull up.

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Lynn nursing his red wine hangover and lashing out at the world re: Boyd.

 

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9 hours ago, chasfh said:

They usually do, but they didn’t this time. It was about what we could have expected. Probably neither will make the majors, but then, the likely alternative was Nick walked, anyway.

oh come on.  the thread you started on nick is full of "nick sucks we'll be lucky to get a bag of balls for him" talk.  instead they got a former #1 pick and a former #2 pick.

Richan is a really good pick up for nick.  Lange seems like a shot in the dark but Richan seems to have some real skill.

to me thats pretty good for a guy half this board said was useless.

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If Boyd finishes the year strong there will be plenty of buyers in the off-season.  There's Cole and Bumgarner and that's it as far as Free Agents go so Boyd will look attractive to teams that miss out on those two.

Also as good as Boyd has been he hasn't put together a great complete season so I can see why teams would be hesitant to trade for him now only to see him fall apart down the stretch.

He can quiet those concerns by finishing the year strong this year and like I said if he does I fully expect to have plenty of suitors for him.

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23 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

Yeah they've done nothing but screw Boyd, Norris and Turnbull up.

Seriously, using Daniel Norris as an example?

Those guys truly are what the league standard is measured by.   Boyd has been above average in stretches.  Norris and Turnbull...probably wouldn't be in the rotation for the majority of MLB teams, but since they are in the Tigers organization...they are there.  And Boyd and Norris came from the Blue Jays organization and were in AAA Buffalo.

They've done a **** of a job with all those awesome relief pitchers they have developed.  They've done a **** of a job with all those other starters that have set the league on fire.  

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17 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Lynn nursing his red wine hangover and lashing out at the world re: Boyd.

 

Lynn joins the chorus condemning Avila for not getting what no one was offering.  So dishonest and such a cheap shot.   

Fair criticism is fine, this isn't that.

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5 minutes ago, gmoney said:

Seriously, using Daniel Norris as an example?

He seems to have turned a corner, we'll see if it holds up.   3ER in his last 15IP.

Perhaps you want to provide some examples of the can't miss prospects they've screwed up?   It's easy to avoid someone picking at your statement when you give no examples to support your assertion.

 

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9 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

He seems to have turned a corner, we'll see if it holds up.   3ER in his last 15IP.

Perhaps you want to provide some examples of the can't miss prospects they've screwed up?   It's easy to avoid someone picking at your statement when you give no examples to support your assertion.

 

My assertion is they haven't developed any pitchers.  The lack of pitchers that have been developed is the evidence.  There is such a lack of pitching prospects that are ready for the majors that Norris and Turnbull have to be in the rotation because there is no one else.

Daniel Norris is the kind of guy that gets your hopes up just to crush them in the long run.  I thought he turned the corner last year too.  He can look great for 4 innings and then look like Ryan Carpenter in the next.  His future is in the bullpen if he has one.  And being left handed is his saving grace.

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8 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

You think that all of  our pitching prospects are all going to make it and they are all going to be positive impact players?   That never happens.  Won't happen here.  Some will fizzle out, some will end up in the pen, some will get hurt.   If 2 of them work out it would be great.

Opinion of the month ..so far!

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54 minutes ago, Buddha said:

oh come on.  the thread you started on nick is full of "nick sucks we'll be lucky to get a bag of balls for him" talk.  instead they got a former #1 pick and a former #2 pick.

Richan is a really good pick up for nick.  Lange seems like a shot in the dark but Richan seems to have some real skill.

to me thats pretty good for a guy half this board said was useless.

Not so much Nick sucks as much as Nick's not going to yield more than a bag of balls. That's a metaphor. If you thought I was being literal, that's on you. :laugh: 

History is littered with #1 and #2 picks who never played in the majors. Mark Appel was a former #1 pick overall. How did that work out?

As for the two guys we got, one is listed as a 40 FV and the other is a 35 FV, meaning there's a good chance neither ever gets to the majors, although there's a lottery ticket's chance that either might have as good a career as Nick. That seems about the right level of return, certainly not the actual prospect or current major leaguer Nick might have been expected to yield in the market of a few years ago.

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The return for Nick was slightly better than I expected. I thought, if he was traded, it would be for a single AA or A arm with questions. Whether it was one or two of them doesn’t change that much. If the offer was just one of those types, I could certainly Avila saying no.

There clearly was not much of a market for him, as evidenced by the last minute nature of the deal and the very modest return. 

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Though the return for Nick to me is average it is also stunningly good considering all that was aligned against the Tigers, but Al again comes across as bleh.

As someone who suggested Demeritte as a Rule 5 target 2 years ago, I am OK with the return for Greene.

But it just seems that Al is never ahead of the curve. If they ever catch the Yankees, Dodgers or Astros, they will be behind again because those franchises are not standing still. When was the last time the Tigers did anything out of the box?

And give Chris I some credit for throwing some $ into the Cubs deal. You don't see many NBA type trades of "take this bad contract for this good asset in MLB" - always thought that would be an easy way for bad teams with low payrolls to add more talent.

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1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said:

Though the return for Nick to me is average it is also stunningly good considering all that was aligned against the Tigers, but Al again comes across as bleh.

As someone who suggested Demeritte as a Rule 5 target 2 years ago, I am OK with the return for Greene.

But it just seems that Al is never ahead of the curve. If they ever catch the Yankees, Dodgers or Astros, they will be behind again because those franchises are not standing still. When was the last time the Tigers did anything out of the box?

And give Chris I some credit for throwing some $ into the Cubs deal. You don't see many NBA type trades of "take this bad contract for this good asset in MLB" - always thought that would be an easy way for bad teams with low payrolls to add more talent.

I think Chris had to throw dollars into the Cubs deal to get the Cubs to finalize the deal. I think he had to or else would have been left holding a $3 million bag and get nothing in return when Nick walks. I wouldn't doubt if they came to a verbal agreement and then at 3:59pm Jed said, "no deal without some money."

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FWIW, Fangraphs' assessment of our new Tiger farm pieces.

45 10 Joey Wentz LHP 21.8 DET ATL (Greene)
Lefty with fringe velo and a great changeup. His fastball plays up due to vertical movement.
40 26 Alex Lange RHP 23.8 DET CHC (Castellanos)
Lange’s velo is up a little bit but he’s still got 40 control and profiles as a reliever who mixes his pitches evenly
35 39 Paul Richan RHP 22.3 DET CHC (Castellanos)
Strike-throwing depth starter, which everyone seems to need.
35 42 Travis Demeritte 2B 24.8 DET ATL (S. Greene)
The once-touted second baseman with power is having a bounce back season after being bad for a while.

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4 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

Yeah they've done nothing but screw Boyd, Norris and Turnbull up.

I think we should use Justin Verlander as evidence that the Tigers screw up all their pitchers...

Right gmoney?

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4 hours ago, Buddha said:

oh come on.  the thread you started on nick is full of "nick sucks we'll be lucky to get a bag of balls for him" talk.  instead they got a former #1 pick and a former #2 pick.

Richan is a really good pick up for nick.  Lange seems like a shot in the dark but Richan seems to have some real skill.

to me thats pretty good for a guy half this board said was useless.

I think we got a terrific return for Castellanos....

As compared to expectations.

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4 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

... He can quiet those concerns by finishing the year strong this year and like I said if he does I fully expect to have plenty of suitors for him.

If he maintains...

All the way through to next year's deadline (if the offers aren't there this offseason...); I think the offers go way up next year's deadline...

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