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Greene / Boyd Trade Options

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23 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

Fulmer's not a write-off yet I guess. He will be Turnbull's age next season. I've been as pessimistic about his stuff as his health though. If there has been a  subtle level of instability there prior I suppose it's possible he could back with better command. But the other issue is that he may be coming back into the middle of log jam in the rotation. Does he have option left so they can leave him in Toledo for the half season it can take a guy to get his stuff back?

Even if he didn’t have an option left, they could simply have him rehabbing in Lakeland for extended period while he works to get his stuff back. Eventually he could go on a rehab assignment, of course. And it wouldn’t be that hard to find some sort of “setback” to reset the clock on the rehab assignment. 

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

In any event, my point was to suggest he would have returned more in trade a few years ago than he would now.

yes, Indeed.

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12 minutes ago, Shelton said:

Even if he didn’t have an option left, they could simply have him rehabbing in Lakeland for extended period while he works to get his stuff back. Eventually he could go on a rehab assignment, of course. And it wouldn’t be that hard to find some sort of “setback” to reset the clock on the rehab assignment. 

by "Lakeland" you mean extended spring training? I'd forgotten about that. But once that ends if they put him on any team at any level the 20(?) day rehab clock does start doesn't it? Or he can accept assignment voluntarily?

The question of cycling him back does depend on his cooperation though. I assume in Fulmer's case they would probably get it. That is one of the things the has put Zimmermann on the bad list to me  - that he appears to have demanded to come back to the Tigers when he was not able  to pitch at the MLB level on more than one occasion.

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

by "Lakeland" you mean extended spring training? I'd forgotten about that. But once that ends if they put him on any team at any level the 20(?) day rehab clock starts doesn't it?

I meant Lakeland to mean the training complex down there. Whether some form of organized extended spring training or just simply working out. You don’t have to assign him to an actual team for him to get his work in.

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6 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I meant Lakeland to mean the training complex down there. Whether some form of organized extended spring training or just simply working out. You don’t have to assign him to an actual team for him to get his work in.

right, although the general availability of hitters to scrimmage with does end at some point - roughly about now - when the short season leagues start up I believe most attendees leave.

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3 minutes ago, Gehringer_2 said:

right, although the general availability of hitters to scrimmage with does end at some point - roughly about now - when the short season leagues start up I believe most attendees leave.

The Lakeland players and GCL players would still be available to stand in for scrimmage purposes, though. Point being, he will be able to rehab his arm at whatever pace he needs without worry about a ticking rehab assignment clock. 

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54 minutes ago, Shelton said:

The Lakeland players and GCL players would still be available to stand in for scrimmage purposes, though. Point being, he will be able to rehab his arm at whatever pace he needs without worry about a ticking rehab assignment clock. 

so the next question would be - the guy is somewhere along the line and he thinks he is ready to start pitching competitively and to start the rehab clock and the team disagrees. Who resolves that? Does a doc provide a medical clearance or something? Funny but I've never paid any attention to one of these before - I guess because I've never noted an issue with a guy being a pain about wanting to come back before he was ready before we had Zimmermann. Well no- we went through this with Dontrelle to some degree - kept having to bring him up and send him back for more 'rehab' when it wasn't as much a medical problem any more as just a pitching problem.

EDIT: thinking about this, IIRC  Dontrelle did eventually accept a voluntary assignment in the minors, though in the end he never did find 'it' again.

 

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2 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

Minnesota seems like they would be a good fit for Boyd.  They got plenty of offense and prospects so they could trade from depth to help shore up their SP in the playoffs.  

Kiriloff is a good start

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At this point Fulmer is just like Mark Fidrych without the goofy antics.  Rookie of the year, then oft injured afterwards.  

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If we are talking about trading Boyd, how about shopping Jake Jones as well?  Is he any more likely to contribute when they are a contender than Boyd?  He is 27 and his defense is down this year.  Is this just an anomaly or is he starting to regress defensively?  The same can be said for his offense.  Has he really improved or is he going to go back to being Jones again?  

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6 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

If we are talking about trading Boyd, how about shopping Jake Jones as well?  Is he any more likely to contribute when they are a contender than Boyd?  He is 27 and his defense is down this year.  Is this just an anomaly or is he starting to regress defensively?  The same can be said for his offense.  Has he really improved or is he going to go back to being Jones again?  

Depends on what they can get for him.  Would love to open CF for Daz.

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5 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

If we are talking about trading Boyd, how about shopping Jake Jones as well?  Is he any more likely to contribute when they are a contender than Boyd?  He is 27 and his defense is down this year.  Is this just an anomaly or is he starting to regress defensively?  The same can be said for his offense.  Has he really improved or is he going to go back to being Jones again?  

I think the more important question is: what are the chances that the guy(s) you get in return will contribute when they are a contender?

Boyd will hopefully bring back one or more legitimate prospects. I don’t think Jake has the track record yet to bring back anything good  

 

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2 minutes ago, Shelton said:

I think the more important question is: what are the chances that the guy(s) you get in return will contribute when they are a contender?

Boyd will hopefully bring back one or more legitimate prospects. I don’t think Jake has the track record yet to bring back anything good  

 

Probably not unless he packaged with Boyd or Greene.  

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Henning already lowering the bar on an adequate return for Boyd. Says the Tigers should be happy with what they get because the market has changed.

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4 minutes ago, kdog said:

Henning already lowering the bar on an adequate return for Boyd. Says the Tigers should be happy with what they get because the market has changed.

Henning gonna Henning. 

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7 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

Probably not unless he packaged with Boyd or Greene.  

True. And by all means, if including JaCoby in a deal allows the tigers to get a better overall prospect return than without him, then do it. 

That said, it’s not like the tigers are swimming in outfield prospects. I could see them being a bit reluctant to trade a solid position player.

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35 minutes ago, tiger337 said:

If we are talking about trading Boyd, how about shopping Jake Jones as well?  Is he any more likely to contribute when they are a contender than Boyd?  He is 27 and his defense is down this year.  Is this just an anomaly or is he starting to regress defensively?  The same can be said for his offense.  Has he really improved or is he going to go back to being Jones again?  

I'd rather trade JakeJ than Boyd but I'm doubtful he'd bring much in return.

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17 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

**** that. Payment by Monday at the latest. 

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I had this epiphany on both these guys today.  Less so Greene, more so Boyd.

Going year to year means the back end of their arb years will be expensive.  Greene probably won't be too much of a concern.

The White Sox were able to extract a ton for their three dump trades because they locked Quintana, Sale, and Eaton up with some pre-arb years included and helping keep the AAV steady through the pre-arb years. Yes, they had the same salary as they would have if they didn't sign, but the luxury tax hit was not severe.  Boyd's years of control aren't as sexy as Quintana, for example, because he's likely to be a $12-15M or so player in his final arb year, whereas Quintana's AAV was about half his salary in 2018.

Long story short, a team up against the luxury tax next year may hold that against Boyd.

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I'd feel a lot better about the return for Boyd if he were a fair bit younger than 28 and this weren't his first better-than-average season. I understand the guy's got skills and this isn't a pure luck year, but expecting a contender to give us the moon and the stars for a guy's 29 through 31 seasons without a better track record behind him strikes me as really ambitious.

I see Boyd moving for the kind of raw, toolsy prospect that other teams are looking to clean out of their systems but that this front office still values highly. To get anyone in the top 100, I think the Tigers would have to throw in 30-year-old Greene as well, at minimum. With all the tankers competing for prospects as well, the market's already stacked against us, so I can see us pulling the trigger quickly on the first offer we consider to be halfway decent.

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15 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I'd feel a lot better about the return for Boyd if he were a fair bit younger than 28 and this weren't his first better-than-average season. I understand the guy's got skills and this isn't a pure luck year, but expecting a contender to give us the moon and the stars for a guy's 29 through 31 seasons without a better track record behind him strikes me as really ambitious.

I see Boyd moving for the kind of raw, toolsy prospect that other teams are looking to clean out of their systems but that this front office still values highly. To get anyone in the top 100, I think the Tigers would have to throw in 30-year-old Greene as well, at minimum. With all the tankers competing for prospects as well, the market's already stacked against us, so I can see us pulling the trigger quickly on the first offer we consider to be halfway decent.

What you have in Boyd is a pitcher that has 95, has learned his craft, and has a rock solid health history. Which makes this exactly the description of a counter productive, franchise value reducing trade. Let's see if Avila makes it.

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