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14 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

One thing life has taught me, *the* one thing I am absolutely certain of, when it comes down to it, is that things can *always* be worse.

Sometimes failures on the field are as simple as the players themselves aren't that good.  I know that seems defeatist and the desire to take action is strong and understandable, but I honestly believe firing a bunch of coaches would have no net positive impact *and* is more likely to make things worse.

If the players are simply not that talented, then fire Al Avila for acquire lackluster players.  If it is bad coaching/managing, then fire them.  At the end of the day someone needs to get fired for assembling this mess of a team.  

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5 minutes ago, bobrob2004 said:

If the players are simply not that talented, then fire Al Avila for acquire lackluster players.  If it is bad coaching/managing, then fire them.  At the end of the day someone needs to get fired for assembling this mess of a team.  

Even if the goal was to be terrible?

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My concern is bum coaches having a negative outcome on good kids with potential. 

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1 minute ago, LooseGoose said:

Even if the goal was to be terrible?

Good one ? I guess we would hope these guys have to be good at the minor league levels so when the overnight 180 degree turn happens where we supposedly go from loser to winners they’ll be ready.

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6 minutes ago, 1776 said:

Good one ? I guess we would hope these guys have to be good at the minor league levels so when the overnight 180 degree turn happens where we supposedly go from loser to winners they’ll be ready.

All we need to do to be good is to fire everyone.

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25 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

Even if the goal was to be terrible?

Then Chris Ilitch should be fired.

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42 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I should also add that I can't honestly claim to be able to judge whether Lloyd is teaching a hitting approach or not, or whether or not fundamentals are being stressed during training.

I presume they are - I doubt the coaches are just picking their *** or don't care, or don't know what they are talking about.  But that is a guess on my part.

it is possible that the organization's approach to hitting is just a bad one. Certainly I believe that coaches do reach MLB believing in counterproductive strategies. For example, I feel pretty certain that there was a time not to long ago that this organization was way too oversold on 'pitching to contact'. The zenith being the Chuck Hernandez period when they were trying to turn Justin Freaking Verlander into Tom Glavine V2.0. So I suppose the same thing could be true at some level with hitting; But, the thing with hitting is that any particular mechanical approach is probably wrong for 40% of the hitters on any team, so maybe the best thing a pitching coach can be is open minded, have a broad understanding of all the techniques that worked for a wide variety of hitters, and be good at coaching the mental aspects of hitting, at video analysis, and just have a good eye for when guys get into bad habits at the plate they don't realize.

At that point - it goes back to your point. Avila has to believe and take Gardenhire's word for whether what Lloyd and the rest of the instructors in the system are doing is an asset and Gardenhire has to be right - there isn't any other way to insure that the hitting coaching is good or effective.

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Yeah - I'm not trying to say coaches can't be wrong or bad.  Like any profession, I suspect there are a couple of highly effective coaches and a bunch of ineffective ones.

 

I just think the fire 'em all approach is frankly simplistic and probably would make the organization worse.

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34 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I just think the fire 'em all approach is frankly simplistic and probably would make the organization worse.

If it does make it worse, I don't think anyone would notice.  

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4 hours ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

With whom should they replace the staff with?

Someone that will teach these bums how to get runs home when there less than two outs and a runner on third.  

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1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Who are the good kids with potential?

Lugo and Greiner

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1 hour ago, cruzer1 said:

We're #3!  On the way up!

Is there a clear #1 pick next year? Catching Baltimore may be difficult. 

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9 minutes ago, SeattleMike said:

Is there a clear #1 pick next year? Catching Baltimore may be difficult. 

Considering the depth of the division that Baltimore plays in and the depth of the division that Detroit plays in, I would agree.

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Tigers last 23 home games, they have 2 or less in 12 of them, per Dan and Jim.  

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Tigers lost 3-1 .. but it was a moral 'victory' that they scored the 1 run.  

GO TIGERS!!!

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On 6/24/2019 at 9:38 AM, kdog said:

Fans revolt with indifference not anger. They don't watch and are completely not engaged during the summer. Maybe they come back when the team turns it around but don't take that for granted.

Chris I also needs to figure out if he can start his own tv network or go back to Sinclair and have them give him a huge rights fee.

I literally haven't watched or listened to an inning of Tiger baseball in months.  First time in over 20 years that I could say that. 

I have listened religiously (and watched especially after I got online TV a couple of years ago) since I came back from the west side of the state in 1998 through last year.  Some of those teams were really brutal, but I was there.

Frankly, the handful of posters who keep rooting for tanking around here have really turned me off to the Tigers side of MTS.  If I seem irritated, now you know why.

I work within a couple of blocks of Mudhens Stadium and haven't even bothered to go there this year I'm so completely disinterested.  Sure, in my new job I am super unbelievably busy, and I'm in the middle of moving my family from Kalamazoo right now, but I would still love to have a legit reason to show up for games here or in Detroit and see something or someone worth watching.  It just ain't there, sorry. 

Mize and Manning are interesting enough....I'll start to go to the 'Hens maybe when they are with the team and pitching.

Call me in 2025 or whenever this bull**** tanking is supposed to stop.

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The Lack of HR power is what really baffles me.  I mean they're terrible in all offensive categories but there not THAT much worse than everybody else in most of them but HRs is the one that really stands out.  They are 46 HRs behind what the average AL team has at this point.   While the ball is flying out of the yard at record rates the Tigers are hitting HRs at a rate that isn't much more than some teams did 90 years ago.    Currently our HR rate is closer to many teams from the deadball era than it is top teams in the league this year.  

 

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On 6/24/2019 at 1:11 PM, IdahoBert said:

I know it’s a business and a business owner can do whatever they want with their business.  But there are limits. Baseball explicitly solicits and enculturates a notion among fans that it’s “their” team, that it’s different from other things and that it’s a social property in which all are stakeholders. So it can’t be treated solely as a business in exclusion from these other factors.  When you do that you ultimately undermine the value of the team in a variety of ways.  

A team is both a revenue stream and a stream of affect and emotion that makes it special in relation to other things. These two streams cannot be artificially separated without the whole ship going down. You debase the currency both monetarily and emotionally.  

People need to be able to buy into this “social property“ thing otherwise it’s like making a big deal over little more than Burger King vs. McDonald’s. You have to be careful about undermining this sense of identification and inclusion by turning the team into just another mundane object like any other  

Right now, the sense of identification is being undermined, and the sense of inclusion — the sense of mattering and being a part of all this —will be undermined unless real players show up indigenously or the team opens the checkbook and buys good players. SOON.

This.  I am tired of being told that I have to have emotional detachment, it's not my team, it's a business, trust the process, tanking is good.  Tanking sucks.....if we were guaranteed to get Mike Trout for one season of tanking I **might** be persuaded.  But sorry, as much as I like Manning and Mize, as pitchers, they are always one click away from oblivion.....and as great a hitting prospect as Greene is, he's probably 5+ years away from making a positive impact on the Tigers....or not.  It just isn't worth all of the tanking to get a top 5 or 10 pick.

Here's an idea: do a better job drafting and developing below the top 10 guys, and fill in most of the gaps with FAs who can get the job done, and add the difference-makers where you can.  DD and AA were not great at drafting/developing, but they capitalized on a handful of picks (esp. JV) and got the Tigers to a WS in 2006 in just a handful of seasons.  And the big FA spend didn't come until AFTER 2006, so let's not pretend that rebuilds are all about losing/drafting.  Everybody thinks that losing = next Astros.  If you have the Astros' FO, sure.  Otherwise, not so much.

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36 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

The Lack of HR power is what really baffles me.  I mean they're terrible in all offensive categories but there not THAT much worse than everybody else in most of them but HRs is the one that really stands out.  They are 46 HRs behind what the average AL team has at this point.   While the ball is flying out of the yard at record rates the Tigers are hitting HRs at a rate that isn't much more than some teams did 90 years ago.    Currently our HR rate is closer to many teams from the deadball era than it is top teams in the league this year. 

The Twins have been going big on launch angle and FB% and are performing.  Even guys who weren't FB hitters are hitting FBs and are showing some power.  The Tigers seem to be trying to duplicate the 1985 Cardinals, minus Jack Clark.  It's simple in the MLB right now.  HIT.MORE.FLY.BALLS.STUPID. (or get guys who will).

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12 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

Is there a clear #1 pick next year? Catching Baltimore may be difficult. 

 

Next year's draft looks pretty sweet, with more talent next year than the previous two years.  Emerson Hancock, RHP from Georgia, is largely thought to be the top player right now; with 1b Spencer Torkelson the #1 bat.  Fangraphs said that Torkelson is a notch behind Vaughn as a hitter, but has more power.  He also might have legit position versatility as an outfield corner.

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/spencer-torkelson-is-an-early-contender-for-no-1-pick-in-2020-mlb-draft/

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15 hours ago, sabretooth said:

I literally haven't watched or listened to an inning of Tiger baseball in months.  First time in over 20 years that I could say that. 

I have listened religiously (and watched especially after I got online TV a couple of years ago) since I came back from the west side of the state in 1998 through last year.  Some of those teams were really brutal, but I was there.

Frankly, the handful of posters who keep rooting for tanking around here have really turned me off to the Tigers side of MTS.  If I seem irritated, now you know why.

I work within a couple of blocks of Mudhens Stadium and haven't even bothered to go there this year I'm so completely disinterested.  Sure, in my new job I am super unbelievably busy, and I'm in the middle of moving my family from Kalamazoo right now, but I would still love to have a legit reason to show up for games here or in Detroit and see something or someone worth watching.  It just ain't there, sorry. 

Mize and Manning are interesting enough....I'll start to go to the 'Hens maybe when they are with the team and pitching.

Call me in 2025 or whenever this bull**** tanking is supposed to stop.

 

14 hours ago, sabretooth said:

This.  I am tired of being told that I have to have emotional detachment, it's not my team, it's a business, trust the process, tanking is good.  Tanking sucks.....if we were guaranteed to get Mike Trout for one season of tanking I **might** be persuaded.  But sorry, as much as I like Manning and Mize, as pitchers, they are always one click away from oblivion.....and as great a hitting prospect as Greene is, he's probably 5+ years away from making a positive impact on the Tigers....or not.  It just isn't worth all of the tanking to get a top 5 or 10 pick.

Here's an idea: do a better job drafting and developing below the top 10 guys, and fill in most of the gaps with FAs who can get the job done, and add the difference-makers where you can.  DD and AA were not great at drafting/developing, but they capitalized on a handful of picks (esp. JV) and got the Tigers to a WS in 2006 in just a handful of seasons.  And the big FA spend didn't come until AFTER 2006, so let's not pretend that rebuilds are all about losing/drafting.  Everybody thinks that losing = next Astros.  If you have the Astros' FO, sure.  Otherwise, not so much.

I get this.  Certainly the drafting and developing better part.  They need to do a better job with the farm system.  There isn't necessarily a reason to intentionally tank when other teams have been competitive year in and year out without tanking.  And as has been mentioned prior, with more teams now in the mode of bottoming out to get better, how is that going to work in the long run?  If a team isn't good at drafting and developing than the others, picking earlier in the drafts likely isn't going to amount to much.

And as for falling out of favor so much to ignore the team, I can understand that, too, although I'm not to that point with the Tigers.  I ignored a team last fall because of off field shenanigans, so I'd be a hypocrite of I criticized you for this.  I have found myself just merely checking into a game in progress this season as opposed to previous years where I would start from the beginning of the game and watch it through to the end.  There really isn't much to watch at the major league level this season.  Maybe to see if Stewart or Jones or Norris or Turnbull or Boyd or Jimenez can develop into anything.  Some people can latch onto watching the end of a hall of fame career in Cabrera, but I can't get into that, and I've never had the attachment to him that most other fans have had.

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22 hours ago, tiger337 said:

Someone that will teach these bums how to get runs home when there less than two outs and a runner on third.  

They should hire Leonys Martin to do that.  He has a method that works without anyone even having to hit the ball, so it should be a good fit for the Tigers.

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