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six-hopper

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1 hour ago, six-hopper said:

They could probably have picked someone at random out of the stands in Lakeland, paid him or her the minimum, and gotten at least as much production as they're getting out of Harrison.  I mean, he's no Jordy Mercer.

Like Gordon Beckham?  

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On 6/17/2019 at 7:56 PM, LooseGoose said:

..and this offseason overpaying Ross, Mercer, Harrison, etc......I'm convinced you're on to something.

Those were the "high potential upside" crapshoot signings. They probably had some bonehead  down in the dungeon  with a ream of metrics on  each player claiming he was convinced that each of those guys was due to break out......trade bait etc

Looking at the current 25 man active roster, 16 of them are earning below $600,000....that doesn't look to me like a team trying to win

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14 minutes ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

Those were the "high potential upside" crapshoot signings. They probably had some bonehead  down in the dungeon  with a ream of metrics on  each player claiming he was convinced that each of those guys was due to break out......trade bait etc

Looking at the current 25 man active roster, 16 of them are earning below $600,000....that doesn't look to me like a team trying to win

I think you're right.   It looks like a young team willing to tank another year.   Strange as it seems, I think they're succeeding if that was the goal.

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Plus, you can only put so much garbage on the field at one time.  Gotta have a few players who are at least functionally capable of fielding a position.

If the Tigers put so much garbage out  on the field at one time that we are having games with double digit errors,  then even the kool aid drinkers might get excited enough to  revolt. 

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lol, I love the old interwebz "koolaid drinkers" thing.

I look at it the other way, anyone that thought this year was going to be anything but ugly was drinking something.   

Accept it for what it is and is going to be, then hope for a better future.

And "revolt" how?   Post mean messages on an internet message board?   I guess that'll get them.

 

 

 

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I was hoping that Candy would bounce back from his bad second half last year and show that he could be somebody that you could count on to be part of your future but that obviously didn't happen.  Also thought Stewart would be a better offensive player than he has been, I was thinking low 800s with atleast 20-25 HRs, he's not going to come close to that at his current rate.   

 

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5 hours ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

Those were the "high potential upside" crapshoot signings. They probably had some bonehead  down in the dungeon  with a ream of metrics on  each player claiming he was convinced that each of those guys was due to break out......trade bait etc

I think this year proves it more than anything that the Tigers don't have an analytics department. Anyone claiming to be in the analytics department is overpaid. 

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7 hours ago, DumberAndLeaner said:

Those were the "high potential upside" crapshoot signings. They probably had some bonehead  down in the dungeon  with a ream of metrics on  each player claiming he was convinced that each of those guys was due to break out......trade bait etc

Looking at the current 25 man active roster, 16 of them are earning below $600,000....that doesn't look to me like a team trying to win

I don't think anyone suggested that they were "high" potential.  They were stopgap signings with potential to be trade bait for prospects.  Anyone thinking that any of these signings were going to be flipped for a top 100 type prospect was probably misled.

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15 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I was hoping that Candy would bounce back from his bad second half last year and show that he could be somebody that you could count on to be part of your future but that obviously didn't happen.  Also thought Stewart would be a better offensive player than he has been, I was thinking low 800s with atleast 20-25 HRs, he's not going to come close to that at his current rate.   

 

As long as Chris I believes that the team will claw its way back to respectability (.500) at some point under AA, without big spend, THEN big $$ will be applied, we shall as fans get whatever we get in the meantime.

I don't think we are going to get to 500 under AA without big spend.   I doubt that Chris I will want to spend big on a 500 team, so my guess is that AA will be fired at some point in the next 3 years.

Just my guess.

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Fans revolt with indifference not anger. They don't watch and are completely not engaged during the summer. Maybe they come back when the team turns it around but don't take that for granted.

Chris I also needs to figure out if he can start his own tv network or go back to Sinclair and have them give him a huge rights fee.

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29 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

As long as Chris I believes that the team will claw its way back to respectability (.500) at some point under AA, without big spend, THEN big $$ will be applied, we shall as fans get whatever we get in the meantime.

I don't think we are going to get to 500 under AA without big spend.   I doubt that Chris I will want to spend big on a 500 team, so my guess is that AA will be fired at some point in the next 3 years.

Just my guess.

As long as we get decent reports from the guys in the minors then Al is safe. It's once those guys don't produce at the ML that he will start to get heat.  Someone on twitter, a former member here, suggested Al would get fired soon, and I don't get that thinking.    What do we see at the ML level that has not been what we were told we would get?  The org told us this team would be awful for 2019-2020.... 

But i wouldn't be shocked if going into 2020 if Chris gives Al a little bit more money to spend to at least get the team presentable in order to sell tickets and get viewers to watch.  Let's see how the attendance goes this summer when it's not raining and cold.  

 

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15 hours ago, bobrob2004 said:

I think this year proves it more than anything that the Tigers don't have an analytics department. Anyone claiming to be in the analytics department is overpaid. 

They're more focused on advanced stats than you realize,  Bobrob.  I have information from a knowledgeable insider (i.e., not The Damus) that the Tigers' front office recently invested in a calculator.  Not a fancy one with a square root function,  mind you,  but a calculator nonetheless.  So obviously they're getting pretty serious about analytics.

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1 hour ago, Oblong said:

As long as we get decent reports from the guys in the minors then Al is safe. It's once those guys don't produce at the ML that he will start to get heat. 

And rightly so.   If the prospects that have been the hope lifeline fail and it's time to start over again, you clean house.

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12 minutes ago, LooseGoose said:

And rightly so.   If the prospects that have been the hope lifeline fail and it's time to start over again, you clean house.

As long as we have the same superb system that has developed all of the Tigers' recent homegrown quality  position players, like, uh, Curtis Granderson, there is every reason to expect a quick return to championship form.

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1 hour ago, six-hopper said:

As long as we have the same superb system that has developed all of the Tigers' recent homegrown quality  position players, like, uh, Curtis Granderson, there is every reason to expect a quick return to championship form.

Glad to see you having some optimism.

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12 minutes ago, six-hopper said:

As long as we have the same superb system that has developed all of the Tigers' recent homegrown quality  position players, like, uh, Curtis Granderson, there is every reason to expect a quick return to championship form.

But that was the old regime and by keeping Al and Chadd and approving all of their changes internally then Chris has signed off on giving them a shot.  If he thought they were responsible for the poor showing then he would have cleaned house already.  

I'm not saying that i think those are the guys to do the rebuild but only that Chris has committed to them by keeping them so until their work is proven to have not worked then we have to go along. They clearly said MLB success is not a priority.

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I know it’s a business and a business owner can do whatever they want with their business.  But there are limits. Baseball explicitly solicits and enculturates a notion among fans that it’s “their” team, that it’s different from other things and that it’s a social property in which all are stakeholders. So it can’t be treated solely as a business in exclusion from these other factors.  When you do that you ultimately undermine the value of the team in a variety of ways.  

A team is both a revenue stream and a stream of affect and emotion that makes it special in relation to other things. These two streams cannot be artificially separated without the whole ship going down. You debase the currency both monetarily and emotionally.  

People need to be able to buy into this “social property“ thing otherwise it’s like making a big deal over little more than Burger King vs. McDonald’s. You have to be careful about undermining this sense of identification and inclusion by turning the team into just another mundane object like any other  

Right now, the sense of identification is being undermined, and the sense of inclusion — the sense of mattering and being a part of all this —will be undermined unless real players show up indigenously or the team opens the checkbook and buys good players. SOON.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

I know it’s a business and a business owner can do however they want with their business. But baseball explicitly solicits and enculturates a notion among fans that it’s “their” team, that it’s different from other things and that it’s a social property in which all are stakeholders. So it can’t be treated solely as a business in exclusion from these other factors.  When you do that you ultimately undermine the value of the team in a variety of ways.  

A team is both a revenue stream and a stream of affect and emotion that makes it special in relation to other things. These two streams cannot be artificially separated without the whole ship going down. You debase the currency both monetarily and emotionally.  

People need to be able to buy into this “social property“ thing otherwise it’s like making a big deal over little more than Burger King vs. McDonald’s. You have to be careful about undermining this sense of identification and inclusion by turning the team into just another mundane object like any other  

Right now, the sense of identification is being undermined, and the sense of inclusion — the sense of mattering and being a part of all this —will be undermined unless real players show up indigenously or the team opens the checkbook and buys good players. SOON.

 

 

good one...in the abstract tanking makes perfect sense but making people ignore your product for 3-4 years is not good business.

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2 hours ago, IdahoBert said:

Right now, the sense of identification is being undermined, and the sense of inclusion — the sense of mattering and being a part of all this —will be undermined unless real players show up indigenously or the team opens the checkbook and buys good players. SOON.

As in many things people see things differently.   You see them being bad as undermining the bond between fan and team.   I often find myself rooting harder for the team when they're struggling and working to get better.   Does "Opening the checkbook" really create a tighter bond between the fans and those mercenaries?   Or is the bond tighter between the fans and those players they've watched grow into MLB players?

I see your point and do agree that the casual fans will peel away until the bandwagon rolls again.  When that happens the players that will most "belong" to the city will be the homegrown kids.   Example from the recent past?   Miggy vs JV?   Granted Miggy wasn't bought but he wasn't developed here either - JV was and always will be closer to the hearts of Tiger fans and I don't think it's even close.

 

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7 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

I see your point and do agree that the casual fans will peel away until the bandwagon rolls again.  When that happens the players that will most "belong" to the city will be the homegrown kids.   Example from the recent past?   Miggy vs JV?   Granted Miggy wasn't bought but he wasn't developed here either - JV was and always will be closer to the hearts of Tiger fans and I don't think it's even close.

 

A better comparison might be Scherzer vs. Verlander.  Both will end up in the Hall of Fame, but Detroit fans will always see Verlaner as the better pitcher.  It also doesn't help that Scherzer had better years in Washington.  

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9 hours ago, LooseGoose said:

As in many things people see things differently.   You see them being bad as undermining the bond between fan and team.   I often find myself rooting harder for the team when they're struggling and working to get better.   Does "Opening the checkbook" really create a tighter bond between the fans and those mercenaries?   Or is the bond tighter between the fans and those players they've watched grow into MLB players?

I see your point and do agree that the casual fans will peel away until the bandwagon rolls again.  When that happens the players that will most "belong" to the city will be the homegrown kids.   Example from the recent past?   Miggy vs JV?   Granted Miggy wasn't bought but he wasn't developed here either - JV was and always will be closer to the hearts of Tiger fans and I don't think it's even close.

 

This isn’t about casual fans. It isn’t about checkbooks. It’s about respecting a tradition and supporting it instead of letting it wither because it’s an expedient business practice. It is technically private property, but it’s social property in the hearts and minds of fans. I don’t think that giving those fans something good to enjoy is pandering. It’s honoring your ancestors.  It’s showing respect towards the sacred relics of our tradition. Right now our ancestors are being dishonored and even if this dishonor has been earned by previous prolificacy you can’t torture of the tradition indefinitely.  

Right now we have grandpa on an infected feeding tube when he’s on life-support in the hospital. This is wrong.  

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5 minutes ago, IdahoBert said:

This isn’t about casual fans. It isn’t about checkbooks. It’s about respecting a tradition and supporting it instead of letting it wither because it’s an expedient business practice. It is technically private property, but it’s social property in the hearts and minds of fans. I don’t think that giving those fans something good to enjoy is pandering. It’s honoring your ancestors.  It’s showing respect toward your elders. Right now our ancestors are being dishonored and even if this dishonor has been earned by previous prolificacy you can’t torture of the tradition indefinitely.  

Right now we have grandpa on an infected feeding tube when he’s on life-support in the hospital. This is wrong.  

This may be true, but what were Chris I and Avila supposed to do differently? To me the only move they made that they could have not made for the sake of the ticket buying fan was not to make the JV trade. But to be completely honest, I don't know if I would have wanted to watch JV struggle to go 10-10 while the team behind him either got shut out or forced him to get 5 outs every other inning. As a baseball fan in the end I have to admit baseball is better off with its great pitchers vying for Cy Youngs and WS rings and it's more enjoyable to keep following his success at a distance than to have to wallow in the frustration  of seeing his HOF credentials slowly degraded by inept teams (and this generation's ridiculous scorers).

the rehash becomes pointless, but the decisions that determined that this team was going to be bad go back years and were baked into the cake before this management got the reins. Avila may not be up to the task, but even if a different person were here that the Delphic Oracle herself had pronounced was the very man that would lead them back, things would not look much different yet. Take the medicine, rebuild the system, and next time be unwilling to throw it all away for a "last  shot" at the brass ring.

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5 hours ago, Gehringer_2 said:

This may be true, but what were Chris I and Avila supposed to do differently? To me the only move they made that they could have not made for the sake of the ticket buying fan was not to make the JV trade. But to be completely honest, I don't know if I would have wanted to watch JV struggle to go 10-10 while the team behind him either got shut out or forced him to get 5 outs every other inning. As a baseball fan in the end I have to admit baseball is better off with its great pitchers vying for Cy Youngs and WS rings and it's more enjoyable to keep following his success at a distance than to have to wallow in the frustration  of seeing his HOF credentials slowly degraded by inept teams (and this generation's ridiculous scorers).

the rehash becomes pointless, but the decisions that determined that this team was going to be bad go back years and were baked into the cake before this management got the reins. Avila may not be up to the task, but even if a different person were here that the Delphic Oracle herself had pronounced was the very man that would lead them back, things would not look much different yet. Take the medicine, rebuild the system, and next time be unwilling to throw it all away for a "last  shot" at the brass ring.

I totally get what you’re saying. I know they had to hit the reset button.  We all realize this.  It’s the “reality principle.“ The pushback we get from a world that does not yield automatically to our will. But we can’t keep hitting the reset button every year. 

This is starting to feel like a medieval leaching instead of neurosurgery. This is the third year in a row of miserable performance. 

I’m tired of the tough medicine approach. This is the 59th season I’ve followed this club. I spend time on an archaic message board discussing the team with other people.  If I am tired of it so are people with less of a stake in this team than myself. 

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