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Mr.TaterSalad

2019 Red Wings Off Season Thread

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Holland is an Oiler now, which has good young prospects of its own.  It will be interesting to see if he continues his historical trend of preferring veterans, and tries to sell his infamous "less can be more exciting" tagline once again.

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6 minutes ago, Euphdude said:

Holland is an Oiler now, which has good young prospects of its own.  It will be interesting to see if he continues his historical trend of preferring veterans, and tries to sell his infamous "less can be more exciting" tagline once again.

If Oiler fans expect Cups they are in the wrong league.

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1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The overall problem with the Nyquist/Tatar situation from 2013 is a philosophical one. I believe that Kenny sent a clear message that at that point in time he valued veterans, regardless of production, over the potential future production of young players. Hence why you saw Samuelsson and Tootoo playing and Tatar in the press box and Nyquist in the AHL. It is also why (I believe) you haven't heard Kenny come out and publicly dog veteran players, yet he'll jump all over a guy like Anthony Mantha in public. Only when his hand was forced by the terrible play of guys like Samuelsson, Cleary, Tootoo and others did we see a youth movement on this roster. Kenny tried to hold off a rebuild and allowing the young players to fully take over for as long as he could.

Would many NHL GM's be willing to demean their prospect pool publicly in the media by referring to the NHL as a "men's league" and say that "kids aren't the answer" as if a 24 year old NHL player is still a "kid". Also, at what age does an NHL player go from being a kid to a man if 24 isn't the age? I don't follow every single NHL GM and what they say over the years, so maybe this has been said before and I am not aware.

Holland has frustrated ALL of us.  Just saying that his record is not all one-sided. If, sure, he's no longer the best GM in the NHL he's still not close to the worst, IMO. Your imbalanced rants - which of course you have the total right as a fan to make and I sometimes find amusing- come off as Jeff Moss-ish, that's all.

http://detroitsportsrag.com/overrated-over-the-hill-gms-arent-the-answer/

 

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The adulation shown GM Yzerman needs to be tempered with the knowledge that he won zero titles in Tampa Bay.  His team choked in the playoffs this year. 

Holland's critics  needs to consider that he won titles here.  Even if you want to take away the late 90's win because he didn't build the team (input on drafting  lot of them)  You can't take a way the pre cap 2002 win because "he bought the team" because there were a lot of wealthy teams that could have "bought the team" as well.  He built a winner and he deserves the credit.  You absolutely can't take the 2008 title away from him.  He rebuilt the roster, spanned one era of stars (Yzerman, Shanny, et al) to the next (Hank and Pavel) and built a team that was able to come within inches of being repeat champs.

The team has some young talent on hand,  a ton of draft capital this year and next and a lot of cap room to play with.  Holland has put Yzerman in an ideal spot to succeed.  I hope he can take advantage of it

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Process <> results. The Red Wings had countless examples of great regular season teams that didn't win a title. Holland's process of building a team was obsolete. He didn't know how to value players properly and didn't make a legit hockey trade in at least 8 years.

There is also some significant disagreement about whether or not they have a lot of quality young prospects.

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Quote
  • Sam Cosentino’s 2019 NHL draft rankings for May are out. I concede this is much more his expertise than mine. He knows these guys much, much better than I do.

From what I’m hearing, there is some consensus developing around the top four or five. Jack Hughes and Kaapo Kakko are one-two, with Kaako widening eyes in the early days of the world championships. (Thumbs up to New Jersey’s social media team for lusting after both players on its Twitter feed. Very good.) The Rangers at number two can relax and be happy with whatever they get.

 

A few teams I spoke with believe WHL Vancouver defenceman Bowen Byram and U.S. National Team Development Program centre Alex Turcotte are separating themselves at three and four, although Sam thinks one of Turcotte’s teammates — centre Trevor Zegras — is in that group. Sixth on his list is WHL Lethbridge centre Dylan Cozens.

That brings us to No. 7.

You’ll hear it millions of times between now and June 21. It is the phrase, “The draft really begins at…” This year, that sentence will often end with “…at three, with Chicago.” What the Blackhawks do after Hughes/Kakko affects everyone else. But, there is another variable, and that is who takes Russian winger Vasily Podkolzin.

I’ve seen more of Thanos the past two years than Podkolzin, but certainly know his reputation. He’s a talented, talented player — as skilled as anyone available in June. But he’s locked into an overseas contract for at least another two years, which limits the number of NHL teams willing to consider it at this time.

“If you need help next season or the year after, you can’t take him,” one exec said this week. “But if you can afford to wait…it could be like a delayed powerball victory.”

Adding to the intrigue is that this type of situation can mean the player drops like a stone, as concerned clubs pass him by. But an unofficial straw poll sees a couple of situations high in the draft that can afford to play the long game.

(Brief interlude: At this time, I introduce the Isiah Thomas rule. As a young reporter breaking into the business, Thomas warned me that, “At the draft, everyone lies.” In 1996, two months before the NBA draft, he told me, on tape, that he was taking Marcus Camby. Remembering his previous rule, I didn’t believe him. When he did select Camby, he laughed and said, “That time, I was telling the truth.” Great memory.)

Back to Podkolzin. New Jersey and the Rangers aren’t going there. The suspicion is the Blackhawks won’t either, since they are determined to regain peak relevance now. The biggest question about Chicago is whether or not they take Byram, since they have selected three defencemen in the first round and another in the second during the past two drafts. (I’d take the best player available and sort it out, but I’m not in charge — luckily for them.)

That brings us to Colorado. The Avalanche are stocked with good, young players. This is a rising team that will get votes as a Stanley Cup contender in 2018-19. It can afford to be patient. Now, some teams are more careful about drafting Russian players with options. Mikhail Grigorenko didn’t work out with the Avalanche, and they have to sort out Nikita Zadorov’s future. There are differing opinions on whether or not Colorado would do it, but there’s no doubt they are in a great position to take the gamble.

At five is Los Angeles, and, like the Blackhawks, are pushing to regain the mystique. It would be a surprise. Then comes Detroit.

No GM is more secure than Steve Yzerman, returning to the scene of his greatest triumphs. Even before his announcement, there was a belief the Red Wings liked Podkolzin’s game. The organization has a great history with Russian players, and Yzerman had success with drafting them in Tampa Bay. They won’t be afraid, if he’s the No. 1 guy on their list.

We’re six weeks away, and already the smokescreens are going up. The playoffs have been great. The off-season intrigue adds to the fun.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-intrigue-around-nhl-draft-starting-take-shape/

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I'd be thrilled with Byram, very pleased with Podzolkin and fine with any of the handful of others expected to be in contention around 6. If Byram is available at 5, I'd have a chat with the Kings.

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2 hours ago, kdog said:

Process <> results. The Red Wings had countless examples of great regular season teams that didn't win a title. Holland's process of building a team was obsolete. He didn't know how to value players properly and didn't make a legit hockey trade in at least 8 years.

There is also some significant disagreement about whether or not they have a lot of quality young prospects.

Process may drive results...but results are King.  And Kenny's proven he can deliver results.  Yzerman has yet to do so. The team he built un Tampa may win a Cup...they may win more than one.  But until they do I don't see how anyone can shower him with unquestioned praise while shoveling manure on the career of Ken Holland.

So far as the young talent goes...most of the analysis I've come across is bullish on the Wings future largely because of the talent they have in the pipeline.  Kenny's an idiot, but he drafted what looks to  be a very effective top line of Bert/Larkin/Mantha using the 58th/15th/20th pick in their respective drafts.  People are down on Rasmussen and Zadina...but they were CHALLENGED  this year.  They played well in spurts and they now have an idea what they need to improve on.  The easy thing to do would have been to let them dominate in the junior leagues like Veleno did and everyone would be raving bouot their potential.  

I think he's done well here...was he perfect? No...but you find me the perfect GM

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I don't want to argue whether or not Holland was lucky or good. We aren't going to change any minds. His time in Detroit was over because the fanbase and more importantly ownership wanted a new direction. Yzerman is a proven team builder who hasn't won a cup. Peter Chiarelli won a cup and screwed up the Bruins and the Oilers. He must be better than Stevie.

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3 hours ago, lordstanley said:

I'd be thrilled with Byram, very pleased with Podzolkin and fine with any of the handful of others expected to be in contention around 6. If Byram is available at 5, I'd have a chat with the Kings.

This is where losing two spots in the lottery sucks. I would have been extremely pleased to be drafting #3 or #4... But alas...

PS: Same. Thrilled with Byram. Uncertain yet on Pod in that scouting reports are that he's not a fast/ strong skater as the other top prospects so.... maybe? And on trading up, if it means giving up a 2nd (or two?) to go up and get Byram... I think I'm for that...

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3 hours ago, kdog said:

I don't want to argue whether or not Holland was lucky or good. We aren't going to change any minds. His time in Detroit was over because the fanbase and more importantly ownership wanted a new direction. Yzerman is a proven team builder who hasn't won a cup. Peter Chiarelli won a cup and screwed up the Bruins and the Oilers. He must be better than Stevie.

I don't want to argue that proposition either because it's ludicrous on its face...you don't engineer multiple titles under two different sets of rules on luck.

I don't think the wishes of the fans had much to do with anything re Holland or Yzerman.  Chris Ilitch wants to chart  his own course and every person and product has a shelf life.  Holland...like Babcock... had his run in Detroit.  It was successful and I wish him well.  I hope Yzemran can do well...he's put his teams in a position to be Cup winners, but they have yet to close the deal.  Holland built teams that did close the deal.  That is a difference I do not think anyone should overlook amidst all this "Stevie's back" jubilation.

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Re the draft...I'd love to get Turcotte, Byram, or Zegras. Less sold on Cozens...would consider trading back a couple of slots if he's all that's there and someone like Anaheim loves him. Concerned about Podkolzin as more thn one analyst has questioned his hockey IQ

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i think holland's legacy is tainted by illitch telling him to keep the streak alive.  that said, i dont think mike told him to sign those ridiculous contracts.

i also find it a little dubious to say that holland has set up yzerman in a great position.  there is a lot of disagreement over the status of their prospects, but there is no disagreement on the nielsen, helm, and abdelkader contracts.  the wings are paying premium money for very bad players, and will be for some time.

that's part of ken holland's legacy too.

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I don't know if there is GM acumen to 'know' who to collect to seal the deal.  Hockey play-offs are very random.

I think there are good reasons to be  concerned with any GM coming into town, no matter how accomplished, because history has several examples in sport where a guy wasn't able to duplicate his success with a new team.  Has Babcock been successful in Toronto (I know he isn't a GM, but the same basic principle apples, past success does not guarantee future returns).  I have to believe Toronto expected more by this point.

In any event, my point is having built a team that sealed the deal as opposed to one that is a top 4 team in the league means relatively little to me, personally.

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

In any event, my point is having built a team that sealed the deal as opposed to one that is a top 4 team in the league means relatively little to me, personally.

agree

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I would also add the criticism of the Wings in the 90's was they were build wrong for the play-offs with too many Russians / Europeans. 

They were build wrong, until they weren't, and then nobody questioned it anymore.

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2 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I would also add the criticism of the Wings in the 90's was they were build wrong for the play-offs with too many Russians / Europeans. 

They were build wrong, until they weren't, and then nobody questioned it anymore.

There was also the problem of the NHL treating and officiating the playoffs as a different game than the regular season in the 90s.

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I don't think the Wings failures in the 90's play-offs were tied that much to officiating, but, yes, it favored a defensive style of play.

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Winning a title vs coming close means a lot to me...Dave Dombrowski's run in Detroit is tainted by the fact that he never built a team that was capable of making that final push to a title.  

But...that's my opinion...I understand that other people see it differently and that's OK by me.......Jerks.    :)

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Ultimately it boils down to whether one believes assembling the talent is enough, and if not, how much blame gets assigned the GM, coach, players, etc.

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Yzerman takes over a bottom 5 team whose young talent & prospect pool is encouraging but not overflowing. Let's say he's the GM for the next 10 years. Two conference finals appearances in that time would be doing well. One appearance is fair to expect. More than that - e.g, 3 conference finals appearances, 2 SCF appearances, 1 Stanley Cup - would exceed what any of 31 fanbases should reasonably expect.

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You basically got that kind of performance from Kenny and people thought he was a pumpkin head and celebrate his departure....

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18 hours ago, lordstanley said:

I'd be thrilled with Byram, very pleased with Podzolkin and fine with any of the handful of others expected to be in contention around 6. If Byram is available at 5, I'd have a chat with the Kings.

Maybe the Rangers will be the John  Gruden of the NHL and pass on Kappo lol. Byram is the guy I am most excited about at this point given our absolute lack of defensive prospects in the system.

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