Jump to content

Mr.TaterSalad

2019 Red Wings Off Season Thread

Recommended Posts


1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Yes the Connor McDavid thing is a joke but if you actually look at Kenny's track record with prospects it bares out. Nyquist sitting in AHL purgatory until 24, Tatar in the pressbox at 23, AA almost cast off from this team.

And we have heard you rant about it countless times. 

I mean, I know I am not the smartest individual going, I know it isn't directed at me personally, and I can appreciate it if you don't respect my, or others, intelligence, but at some point you need to give an individual a little credit for having the ability to remember something you said multiple times to not need to say it yet again.

I'd also suggest comparing Tatar, Nyquist and AA to Connor McDavid is not helping your cause.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have never mentioned Connor Cook, but my guess is you hear about him because you wouldn't let the Matthew Stafford thing go either.

But you would have to ask those posters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

when connor cook becomes the first qb to lead the lions to a championship since tobin rote, you'll never let that go either.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I mean, I have to hear about Conner Cook all the time. What's the difference?

Here's the thing. You make such bold proclamations. You relentlessly attacked Stafford and then supported Conner Cook when the rest of the league knew he was a bust. You'll also see Hockenson thrown in your face if he turns out to be good. It happens when you take a Stephen A Smith approach.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Here's the thing. You make such bold proclamations. You relentlessly attacked Stafford and then supported Conner Cook when the rest of the league knew he was a bust. You'll also see Hockenson thrown in your face if he turns out to be good. It happens when you take a Stephen A Smith approach.  

Fair enough. Not to turn this into a Lions thread, but Hockenson better turn out to be Kelce/Ertz/Gronk which is better than simply being good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Objectively, I think he just needs to be as good or better than the other reasonable options available with the pick.

I think I posted before that I thought Stafford looked unsettled a lot last season. A good tight end could be a big part of the remedy for that. If Quinn played his cards right the pick will get the Lions improvement in two positions on the field so we'll see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't disagree, but the point I am trying to get across is if Hockenson ends up being a B grade Tight End, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad pick.  If there were no foreseeably better options, then it isn't a bad pick, it's just a bad draft class.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Yes the Connor McDavid thing is a joke but if you actually look at Kenny's track record with prospects it bares out. Nyquist sitting in AHL purgatory until 24, Tatar in the pressbox at 23, AA almost cast off from this team.

Odd examples if you're trying to prove Holland's ineptitude.

So Holland drafts AA in the 4th round and after development gets a 30 goal season out of him at the age of 24.

So Holland drafts Tatar with the final pick of the 2nd round and after development (including 79 games played in the season which started with Tatar 22 yo and ended with him 23 yo) gets an average of 25 goals from him during a 3-season span, then is traded him for a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd. 

So Holland drafts Nyquist with the final pick of the 4th round and after development he becomes a consistent 45-50 point player, then is traded for a 2nd and a 3rd (or better).

Those have to be considered big wins for any GM or organization.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

I don't disagree, but the point I am trying to get across is if Hockenson is say a B grade Tight End, it doesn't necessarily make it a bad pick.  If there were no foreseeably better options because it proves to be a bad draft, then it isn't a bad pick, it's just a bad draft.

Conversely... if Hock is a B or B+ player and Oliver is an A- or A player... it may not matter anyways if Hock improves Stafford's and the overall O's efficiency/ effectiveness significantly, allowing us to win games and get into the playoffs. And Quin is correct on his bets with Tavai, Harris, Bryant, Oruwariye, etc...

I'm looking at this from a team-building perspective in which Hock might get a half-grade plus as a team fit whereas Oliver gets a half-grade (or more) downgrade if his style doesn't fit Detroit's at all (I guess, which is what Patricia & Quin decided...). I mean, I liked Oliver a lot. But I'll defer to Quin on this (as if I have a choice...); and hope Quin/ Hock win on team-building as much as talent...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, lordstanley said:

Odd examples if you're trying to prove Holland's ineptitude.

So Holland drafts AA in the 4th round and after development gets a 30 goal season out of him at the age of 24.

So Holland drafts Tatar with the final pick of the 2nd round and after development (including 79 games played in the season which started with Tatar 22 yo and ended with him 23 yo) gets an average of 25 goals from him during a 3-season span, then is traded him for a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd. 

So Holland drafts Nyquist with the final pick of the 4th round and after development he becomes a consistent 45-50 point player, then is traded for a 2nd and a 3rd (or better).

Those have to be considered big wins for any GM or organization.

I don't think those are odd examples at all given Kenny's early valuations of the two players. To start the 2013-2014 season Holland (and possibly Babcock) chose to sit Nyquist and Tatar in favor of Mikel Samuelsson, Jordin Tootoo and Todd Bertuzzi. Nyquist had been on the playoff roster the year prior. However, Kenny thought that Samuelsson and Tootoo would be of greater value to start the season with the team than either the 24 year old Gustav Nyquist or the 23 year old Tomas Tatar. How many other franchises would have had Tatar not even getting playing time (because he was in the press box) or had Nyquist, at that skill level and age, playing in the AHL? I don't know the exact answer there, but I would guess not many.

Nyquist went on to have 23 goals and 48 points that year and Mikel Samuelsson had 1 goal and 3pts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And PS:

Not to turn this forum into a Lions forum... so, I'll get back on message:

I agree with Lord Stanley on Tatar/ Nyquist/ AA... Holland gets wins on these guys. When they start getting playing time is up to the head coach. Holland just finds the talent and build the Org to develop the talent. At that point, it's up to the player and head coach to get him up to NHL speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, 84 Lives!!! said:

And PS:

Not to turn this forum into a Lions forum...

they are all Lion's forums until somebody wins again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Lindstrom is going to be leaving his team in Sweden after they won the championship this season, Grand Rapids bound?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also keeping a player down may have more to do with working on future development / working on some specific element to his game even if he can outperform a veteran.

Heck, it can have to do with maintaining organizational depth in the short term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, drownwithyou said:

Looks like Lindstrom is going to be leaving his team in Sweden after they won the championship this season, Grand Rapids bound?

 

 

Please tell me those are game helmets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mr. Bigglesworth said:

Please tell me those are game helmets.

I think usually only the MVP wears a gold helmet on the ice, but they are all wearing it for the celebration?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand keeping a player for development but at 24 years old ? And Kenny doing it so he and Babcock could play Mikel Samuelsson of all people over said player?

And then when Matt Dery during an interview on 105.1 pressed him on it Kenny said his infamous "This is a men's league." and "Kids aren't the answer." quotes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I understand keeping a player for development but at 24 years old ? And Kenny doing it so he and Babcock could play Mikel Samuelsson of all people over said player?

And then when Matt Dery during an interview on 105.1 pressed him on it Kenny said his infamous "This is a men's league." and "Kids aren't the answer." quotes.

A late 4th round pick is going to take awhile before making the NHL.

Nyquist turned 22 at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, played in 18 games, got 1 goal and 7 assists and 8 points. This was a good Red Wings team, had a record 23 game home winning streak, was #1 overall in the NHL in points into late February before fading badly.

Nyquist turned 23 at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season, played in 22 games out of a 48 game lockout-shortened season and scored 3 goals and 3 assists for 6 points. Another decent Red Wings team, beat Anaheim in the 1st round and took the eventual Cup champs Chicago to Game 7 OT in the 2nd round.

I don't see anything in those stat lines to indicate Nyquist was setting the world on fire in the NHL and that the team was suffering  by not playing him. He clearly had more to learn or areas in which the Red Wings wanted him to improve.

Nyquist turned 24 at the beginning of the 2013-2014 season. Only played 57 games that year because of not playing for the Wings early in the year. Fine, I'l concede that you, me, the media, 99% of fans all wanted him to play right from the start of the season. And he clearly should have, given that he'd explode for 28 goals and 47 points in the 57 games he did play that year. But geesh, that's 25 frickin' missed games only. Hardly something that people need to dwell on years later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that San Jose is now just one series win away from the SCF, and if they reach the SCF this year the 3rd round pick that the Wings received as part of the Nyquist trade will turn into a 2nd round pick in next year's draft.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, lordstanley said:

Hardly something that people need to dwell on years later.

Your whole post was great, but the ending was just so... *chef's kiss* 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/8/2019 at 9:39 PM, lordstanley said:

A late 4th round pick is going to take awhile before making the NHL.

Nyquist turned 22 at the beginning of the 2011-2012 season, played in 18 games, got 1 goal and 7 assists and 8 points. This was a good Red Wings team, had a record 23 game home winning streak, was #1 overall in the NHL in points into late February before fading badly.

Nyquist turned 23 at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season, played in 22 games out of a 48 game lockout-shortened season and scored 3 goals and 3 assists for 6 points. Another decent Red Wings team, beat Anaheim in the 1st round and took the eventual Cup champs Chicago to Game 7 OT in the 2nd round.

I don't see anything in those stat lines to indicate Nyquist was setting the world on fire in the NHL and that the team was suffering  by not playing him. He clearly had more to learn or areas in which the Red Wings wanted him to improve.

Nyquist turned 24 at the beginning of the 2013-2014 season. Only played 57 games that year because of not playing for the Wings early in the year. Fine, I'l concede that you, me, the media, 99% of fans all wanted him to play right from the start of the season. And he clearly should have, given that he'd explode for 28 goals and 47 points in the 57 games he did play that year. But geesh, that's 25 frickin' missed games only. Hardly something that people need to dwell on years later.

The overall problem with the Nyquist/Tatar situation from 2013 is a philosophical one. I believe that Kenny sent a clear message that at that point in time he valued veterans, regardless of production, over the potential future production of young players. Hence why you saw Samuelsson and Tootoo playing and Tatar in the press box and Nyquist in the AHL. It is also why (I believe) you haven't heard Kenny come out and publicly dog veteran players, yet he'll jump all over a guy like Anthony Mantha in public. Only when his hand was forced by the terrible play of guys like Samuelsson, Cleary, Tootoo and others did we see a youth movement on this roster. Kenny tried to hold off a rebuild and allowing the young players to fully take over for as long as he could.

Would many NHL GM's be willing to demean their prospect pool publicly in the media by referring to the NHL as a "men's league" and say that "kids aren't the answer" as if a 24 year old NHL player is still a "kid". Also, at what age does an NHL player go from being a kid to a man if 24 isn't the age? I don't follow every single NHL GM and what they say over the years, so maybe this has been said before and I am not aware.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


Motown Sports Blog



  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      96,816
    • Total Posts
      3,021,172
  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • Upcoming Events

    No upcoming events found
×
×
  • Create New...